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Subject: Consul Placement and Reinforcements rss

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Jim Lee

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I have played this excellent game 4 times, but did come across this issue until now.

Here's the scenario:

Rome has two consuls "overseas," 1 in Africa and 1 in Spain. They each had 7 CUs, but due to combat losses have 2 each left.

The turn has ended and the consul in Spain has been removed. The other in Africa was promoted to proconsul.

My understanding is that I cannot, in the new turn reinforcement phase, put the second consul in Spain with the 2 CUs for 2 reasons:

1. A consul must be placed with a minimum of 5 CUs.
2. Only 2 CUs can be placed outside of Italy, so that would leave the
Roman army in Spain with 4 CUs - not enough to place the consul with

If this is so, my options as I understand are:

1. place the newly elected consul(s) with the stack that is in Rome
2. move one of the consuls by sea with a 3 OPS or campaign card to the
leaderless army in Spain with first card play or thereafter.

Is this all correct?

If I had only 3 CUs in Italy, I could still place the consuls in Rome,right?

I find some of these HCvR rules tedious. Thanks for the help.
 
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Andy Latto
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GA Jim wrote:
Rome has two consuls "overseas," 1 in Africa and 1 in Spain. They each had 7 CUs, but due to combat losses have 2 each left.

The turn has ended and the consul in Spain has been removed. The other in Africa was promoted to proconsul.

My understanding is that I cannot, in the new turn reinforcement phase, put the second consul in Spain with the 2 CUs for 2 reasons:

1. A consul must be placed with a minimum of 5 CUs.
2. Only 2 CUs can be placed outside of Italy, so that would leave the
Roman army in Spain with 4 CUs - not enough to place the consul with

That's right.

Quote:
If this is so, my options as I understand are:

1. place the newly elected consul(s) with the stack that is in Rome
2. move one of the consuls by sea with a 3 OPS or campaign card to the
leaderless army in Spain with first card play or thereafter.

Yes, you can do this (assuming you have at least 5CU in Rome). You say these are your "options" as though they are two different choices. But really they are just two steps of a single plan; first place the Consul in Rome, then move it to where the CU's are.
Quote:
If I had only 3 CUs in Italy, I could still place the consuls in Rome,right?

No. Consuls must be placed in a space with at least 5 CU. No exceptions. See Rule 6.5; Consul placement.

If you ask "but what if I have no space with 5 CU?", the answer is "then the placement of your reinforcements was illegal". You must always place your reinforcements so that there is at least one stack with 5 or more CU (rule 6.2; Roman Reinforceents]. Even if you have no CU on the board at all, you can do this by placing 5 CU in Rome.

The only time a problem arises is if (edited to correct)
1. You have no generals in Italy, except possibly in a beseiged city.
2. You have no stack of 3 or more CU with a general outside of Italy
3. Rome is being besieged.

If all of those are true, your Consuls cannot be placed on the board, and you'll have to get by with just your proconsul(s).[-/] And unless Carthage is similarly bereft of CU's, you will probably lose shortly.

ETA: In this case, the rule "Roman consuls may be placed inside a besieged Rome (Roman CU's may not) if there is no other space they may be placed in" applies, I think, and both consuls are placed in Rome. It's possible that the quoted sentence was intended only to override the "no placing Consuls in a besieged city" rule, but looking at it again, I think it also overrides the "no placing a Consul where there aren't 5 CU" rule. Given that Rome is besieged, and the Roman army has been virtually wiped off the map, I think it's a better rule to be charitable here and give Rome its consuls.

Quote:
I find some of these HCvR rules tedious. Thanks for the help.

Happy to help out. But I'm not sure what you mean when you say you find the rules "tedious". Did you look at the Consul placement rule (6.5) and not understand it? If so, I'm not sure his post will help; I don't think the explanation I've given above is any easier to read than sectio 6.5 of the rules. And going to the rules at http://files.boardgamegeek.com/file/download/3lgjbg0v94/Hann... has two advantages over going to the "rules" forum; you don't have to wait for your answer, and you can rely on the answer you get as being correct.

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Jim Lee

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Thanks Andy. It helps to get confirmation.

I love the game, but some of the rules are tedious. I said that "some" of the rules are tedious. There's no doubt as the rule book is loaded with exceptions to various aspects of the game. That's just a fact. I've read it about 5 times and have assimilated them into my head for the most part, but find myself going back to the rule book FREQUENTLY for clarifications. Maybe I just need to play it more.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.
 
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Russ Williams
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FWIW, for the first half dozen plays, we later discovered some rule or another that we'd misunderstood or forgotten. It is that kind of game.
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Volker Hirscher
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Quote:
The only time a problem arises is if
1. You have no stack of 2 or more CU in Italy
2. You have no stack of 3 or more CU outside of Italy
3. Rome is being besieged.

If all of those are true, your Consuls cannot be placed on the board, and you'll have to get by with just your proconsul(s). And unless Carthage is similarly bereft of CU's, you will probably lose shortly.


I do not completely understand, especially point 3 does not make sense to me. I would say: if 1 or 2 are true, your Consuls cannot be placed - 3 does not matter in this case. The rules say:

Quote:
Roman consuls may be placed inside a besieged Rome (Roman CUs may not) if there is no other legal space they may be placed in.


Or does this phrase mean (how I understood it) that a consul may be placed in a besieged Rome even if there are less than 5 CUs?
 
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Richard Young
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mavo wrote:
Quote:
The only time a problem arises is if
1. You have no stack of 2 or more CU in Italy
2. You have no stack of 3 or more CU outside of Italy
3. Rome is being besieged.

If all of those are true, your Consuls cannot be placed on the board, and you'll have to get by with just your proconsul(s). And unless Carthage is similarly bereft of CU's, you will probably lose shortly.


I do not completely understand, especially point 3 does not make sense to me. I would say: if 1 or 2 are true, your Consuls cannot be placed - 3 does not matter in this case. The rules say:

Quote:
Roman consuls may be placed inside a besieged Rome (Roman CUs may not) if there is no other legal space they may be placed in.


Or does this phrase mean (how I understood it) that a consul may be placed in a besieged Rome even if there are less than 5 CUs?


Well no actually (the rule regarding Consular armies still applies), and is the point of the #3 you did not understand. If there are less than 5 CU in a besieged Rome (and CUs can't be sent there), and there is no other location that the CUs can be distributed that would let you place a Consul, then you don't get to place the Consuls period. Point 3 is necessary because points 1 & 2 could be true but if Rome is not under siege then you could send the CUs there along with a Consul or two.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Ok, thanks, now I understand - I was actually confused by this:

Quote:
Even if you have no CU on the board at all, you can do this by placing 5 CU in Rome.


Should probably state that: "Even if you have no General and no CU on the board at all ...", because I have a General in Italy, I can of course also get to 5 CUs.

Anyway, thanks!
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Thinking about it: What makes you sure that a Consul may not be placed in a besieged Rome, even if there are less than 5 CUs? To be honest, I find the rules a bit unclear here. On the other hand, the situation does not appear very often...
 
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Brandon Ketchum
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mavo wrote:
Thinking about it: What makes you sure that a Consul may not be placed in a besieged Rome, even if there are less than 5 CUs? To be honest, I find the rules a bit unclear here. On the other hand, the situation does not appear very often...


You cannot place a consul with a stack of less than 5 CUs, and you cannot place reinforcement CUs in a city that is being besieged. Thus, if you have less than 5 CUs inside of Rome and it is being besieged, you cannot place a consul there.
 
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Russ Williams
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stout_rugger wrote:
You cannot place a consul with a stack of less than 5 CUs, and you cannot place reinforcement CUs in a city that is being besieged. Thus, if you have less than 5 CUs inside of Rome and it is being besieged, you cannot place a consul there.

The 2nd edition rules have a red rule addition:
rules wrote:
Roman consuls may be placed inside a besieged Rome (Roman CUs may not) if there is no other legal space they may be placed in.
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Yes, exactly this rules addition makes me wonder
 
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Warren Davis
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Last I checked (I may be superseded or just wrong) but from the Avalon Hill edition: you must place the Consuls with a 5CU army if possible. Then the consuls go to the next highest army. Thus: if you had a 3CU army w/a proconsul & a 2 CU army, both consuls go to the 3CU army, subordinating the proconsul, and, if they got into a fight, the commanding Consul would be determined by die roll, reflecting the reality that if 2 Consuls wound up in the same army, they would alternate command by day (Marcellus on Monday, Fabius on Tuesday, etc.). Indeed, in the actual 2nd Punic War, Hannibal won a battle because he waited to attack until the incompetent consul had command. I'm pretty sure the rule carried over to the Valley Games edition...
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Yes, of course, the "change of command" die roll is still there in the VG edition.

But I think regarding consul placement you are wrong. The rules say you need 5 CUs - the only exception is a besieged Rome, and that's where I am not 100% convinced...
 
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Andy Latto
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hermeticmage wrote:
Last I checked (I may be superseded or just wrong) but from the Avalon Hill edition: you must place the Consuls with a 5CU army if possible. Then the consuls go to the next highest army. Thus: if you had a 3CU army w/a proconsul & a 2 CU army, both consuls go to the 3CU army, subordinating the proconsul, and, if they got into a fight, the commanding Consul would be determined by die roll, reflecting the reality that if 2 Consuls wound up in the same army, they would alternate command by day (Marcellus on Monday, Fabius on Tuesday, etc.). Indeed, in the actual 2nd Punic War, Hannibal won a battle because he waited to attack until the incompetent consul had command. I'm pretty sure the rule carried over to the Valley Games edition...

This is completely wrong. Both the first and second edition of the AH rules have exactly the same text I quoted above about requiring that you create a 5CU army if possible, and requiring that consuls be placed with a 5CU army. The only difference is that the first edition rules don't contain the sentence that says "Roman consuls may be placed inside a besieged Rome (Roman CU's may not) if there is no other space they may be placed in".

So playing 1st edition rules, if rome is beseiged with fewer than 5 CU's, all other stacks are 3CU or fewer, all other stacks in it Italy are 24CU or less, (ETA) and there are no generals in Italy except possibly in besieged cities, you don't get to place the Consuls at all. Playing 2nd edition or Valley games rules, it depends on whether you interpret the quoted sentence as only letting you override the "Consuls must be placed where there are at least 5CU" rule, or just the "a beseiged city may not receive reinforceents" rule.

It's not terribly useful to post vague memories of what the rules are in answer to a rules question, especially when someone has already looked up the rules in the rulebook and posted exactly what they say. If your memory is right, you'll just be repeating the previous post. If not, you'll just create confusion.
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Volker Hirscher
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Quote:
Playing 2nd edition or Valley games rules, it depends on whether you interpret the quoted sentence as only letting you override the "Consuls must be placed where there are at least 5CU" rule, or just the "a beseiged city may not receive reinforceents" rule.


Andy got it 100% right... that's the question. How do interprete it, Andy?
 
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Andy Latto
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mavo wrote:
Quote:
Playing 2nd edition or Valley games rules, it depends on whether you interpret the quoted sentence as only letting you override the "Consuls must be placed where there are at least 5CU" rule, or just the "a beseiged city may not receive reinforceents" rule.


Andy got it 100% right... that's the question. How do interprete it, Andy?

I just checked what wargameroom's interpreation is. I trust Bruce Wigdor more than myself as an interpreter of the Hannibal rules. He agrees with what I would do---If there is no legal place (because Rome is beseiged, and Rome is unable to build a stack of 5CU anywhere), then both Consuls are placed in Rome, even if there are fewer than 5 CU there.
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Richard Young
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andylatto wrote:
mavo wrote:
Quote:
Playing 2nd edition or Valley games rules, it depends on whether you interpret the quoted sentence as only letting you override the "Consuls must be placed where there are at least 5CU" rule, or just the "a beseiged city may not receive reinforceents" rule.


Andy got it 100% right... that's the question. How do interprete it, Andy?

I just checked what wargameroom's interpreation is. I trust Bruce Wigdor more than myself as an interpreter of the Hannibal rules. He agrees with what I would do---If there is no legal place (because Rome is beseiged, and Rome is unable to build a stack of 5CU anywhere), then both Consuls are placed in Rome, even if there are fewer than 5 CU there.


An equally legitimate reading of the extra sentence in the Valley Games version is to clarify that while CUs may not be placed in Rome, if it is under siege, Consuls may be. I don't think the editors felt it necessary to re-state that there would have to be 5 CUs there already to do that, but now we may wish they had.

Anyone know how WBC rules on this?
 
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Andy Latto
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Bubslug wrote:
Anyone know how WBC rules on this?

I doubt WBC has ever needed to make a ruling on this. While it's possible in theory to construct postions of this kind where Rome has a chance, in practice any postion that meets these criteria is likely to be one in which the Romans will resign anyway.
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Richard Young
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andylatto wrote:
Bubslug wrote:
Anyone know how WBC rules on this?

I doubt WBC has ever needed to make a ruling on this. While it's possible in theory to construct postions of this kind where Rome has a chance, in practice any postion that meets these criteria is likely to be one in which the Romans will resign anyway.


A practical observation, but not an answer...
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Andy Latto
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mavo wrote:
Quote:
Playing 2nd edition or Valley games rules, it depends on whether you interpret the quoted sentence as only letting you override the "Consuls must be placed where there are at least 5CU" rule, or just the "a beseiged city may not receive reinforceents" rule.


Andy got it 100% right... that's the question. How do interprete it, Andy?

I just found another relevant rules passage, in section 24, the section on general's special abilities. This says that if there are no stacks of 5 CU's in Italy, Fabius may still be placed with a smaller stack, and if there are no CU's at all in Italy, Fabius may still be placed in Rome. It would be really odd to conclude that if you have no CU's at all on the board, you could place Fabius in Rome, but no other general; Fabius's "special ability" is a restriction, not a special ability. I conclude that the intent of the rules is that generals may be placed with fewer than 5 CU's if there is no legal alternative, and since the rules clearly indicate that a general can in some circumstances be placed in a besieged Rome, I would conclude that it is legal to place a general in a besieged Rome with fewer than 5 CU's if there are no 5CU stacks on the board. Otherwise, we are left with the rules interpretation "If there is no alternative, a consul may be placed in a way that violates the 'no placing in a besieged city' rule, or the 'no placing with fewer than 5 CU's' rule, but not both of these rules at once", which seems like a stretch.
 
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Richard Young
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andylatto wrote:
mavo wrote:
Quote:
Playing 2nd edition or Valley games rules, it depends on whether you interpret the quoted sentence as only letting you override the "Consuls must be placed where there are at least 5CU" rule, or just the "a beseiged city may not receive reinforceents" rule.


Andy got it 100% right... that's the question. How do interprete it, Andy?

I just found another relevant rules passage, in section 24, the section on general's special abilities. This says that if there are no stacks of 5 CU's in Italy, Fabius may still be placed with a smaller stack, and if there are no CU's at all in Italy, Fabius may still be placed in Rome. It would be really odd to conclude that if you have no CU's at all on the board, you could place Fabius in Rome, but no other general; Fabius's "special ability" is a restriction, not a special ability. I conclude that the intent of the rules is that generals may be placed with fewer than 5 CU's if there is no legal alternative, and since the rules clearly indicate that a general can in some circumstances be placed in a besieged Rome, I would conclude that it is legal to place a general in a besieged Rome with fewer than 5 CU's if there are no 5CU stacks on the board. Otherwise, we are left with the rules interpretation "If there is no alternative, a consul may be placed in a way that violates the 'no placing in a besieged city' rule, or the 'no placing with fewer than 5 CU's' rule, but not both of these rules at once", which seems like a stretch.


Well reasoned but coming down to judging which rule should take precedence when two or more seem to contradict each other. Your argument rests on the concept of Fabius' special ability being a geographical restriction which shouldn't turn in to an advantage (being able to be placed with fewer than 5CU). So if Fabius can do it why not all the rest - else it would mean that Fabius has an implied extra special ability?

Yet the statement you quoted shows that it was felt more important to preserve his geographic restriction than stick to the consular army restriction - in just his case. Maybe it is just that simple...
 
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Volker Hirscher
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Probably only Marc can finally decide this (it is definitely not answered clearly in the rules). Let's see. I'll gather some questions in the next months and try to ask him then - this question included.
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