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Subject: A "Victim" of the shootings in New York has died 27 years later. rss

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Michael Caraway
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http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/23/9661713-27-year...

I still have this game. And, no, the four punks that were shot by Bernhard Goetz were not victims. He was.

I would have done the same thing.

Happy Holidays. devil
 
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Moved from Subway Vigilante to RSP
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Mac Mcleod
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Peartolomy wrote:
http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/12/23/9661713-27-year...

I still have this game. And, no, the four punks that were shot by Bernhard Goetz were not victims. He was.

I would have done the same thing.

Happy Holidays. devil


Wow.

After being shot, spending time in a coma, and having a second chance at life-- he used it to rape someone and went to prison for most of his life.

I wonder if he had a chance to begin with and actively chose crime because it was more fun or if he was just doomed from the day he was born.

I was born poor to a high school drop out. Maybe D&D saved my life by getting me in with the right crowd.
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Ben Vincent
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Quote:
Maybe D&D saved my life by getting me in with the right crowd.


You mean it didn't turn you into a devil worshipped like the rest of us?
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Tom Patterson
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Were the four people he shot innocent? Probably not, but Bernie Goetz was and is an angry person who basically gunned down four people and put the other passengers on the train at risk as well. Dude is no hero.
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Tom Patterson
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Koldfoot wrote:
TommyP wrote:
Were the four people he shot innocent? Probably not, but Bernie Goetz was and is an angry person who basically gunned down four people and put the other passengers on the train at risk as well. Dude is no hero.


Who claimed he is a hero?

He is simply a man who did what needed to be done.... DESPITE the fact that the rest of the local citizenry was willing to tolerate subway thugs.

I think the argument could be made that Getz was prosecuted so New Yorkers could avoid their shame for allowing the criminal situation to grow so intolerable.


No one in this thread, but the fact is you've got a Facebook group calling him such, the Biography Channel did a thing that referred to him as such, and plenty of New Yorkers who think of him as such.

I don't have a ton of sympathy for the guys who got shot, but the fact is Goetz initiated the violence. None of them swung at him or brandished a weapon, they tried to intimidate him into handing over his money. He fired, people died. In the several interviews I've seen of him, he seems wildly unmoved to have killed people. I think propping him up as a figure of justice is... odd.

I think he was prosecuted because he opened fire in a subway car, killing people who had no weapon, and endangering the other innocent bystanders. It wasn't a clear cut case of self-defense.

Look, I was about one year old when the shooting happened and I was very far away from New York. In my mind, however, this is a case of a violent thing just happening. I don't know if anyone was wrong, but I sure feel no one was right.
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Chad Ellis
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TommyP wrote:
I don't have a ton of sympathy for the guys who got shot, but the fact is Goetz initiated the violence. None of them swung at him or brandished a weapon, they tried to intimidate him into handing over his money.


I think your last sentence is in contradiction with your first. If four people are deliberately intimidating a fifth in order to coerce him into doing something out of fear for his safety then that is, IMHO, a lot more violent than some physical acts.
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Tom Patterson
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
TommyP wrote:
I don't have a ton of sympathy for the guys who got shot, but the fact is Goetz initiated the violence. None of them swung at him or brandished a weapon, they tried to intimidate him into handing over his money.


I think your last sentence is in contradiction with your first. If four people are deliberately intimidating a fifth in order to coerce him into doing something out of fear for his safety then that is, IMHO, a lot more violent than some physical acts.


Well, to me, shooting someone and killing them is a lot more violent than saying "give me five dollars."
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Mac Mcleod
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TommyP wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
TommyP wrote:
I don't have a ton of sympathy for the guys who got shot, but the fact is Goetz initiated the violence. None of them swung at him or brandished a weapon, they tried to intimidate him into handing over his money.


I think your last sentence is in contradiction with your first. If four people are deliberately intimidating a fifth in order to coerce him into doing something out of fear for his safety then that is, IMHO, a lot more violent than some physical acts.


Well, to me, shooting someone and killing them is a lot more violent than saying "give me five dollars."


Four people surrounding you asking you to give them five dollars has an undertone of "or else".

Hell, even having a burly 6' muscular dude asking a 5' scrawny dude for five bucks has the same undertone.

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Tom Patterson
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maxo-texas wrote:
TommyP wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
TommyP wrote:
I don't have a ton of sympathy for the guys who got shot, but the fact is Goetz initiated the violence. None of them swung at him or brandished a weapon, they tried to intimidate him into handing over his money.


I think your last sentence is in contradiction with your first. If four people are deliberately intimidating a fifth in order to coerce him into doing something out of fear for his safety then that is, IMHO, a lot more violent than some physical acts.


Well, to me, shooting someone and killing them is a lot more violent than saying "give me five dollars."


Four people surrounding you asking you to give them five dollars has an undertone of "or else".

Hell, even having a burly 6' muscular dude asking a 5' scrawny dude for five bucks has the same undertone.



And an appropriate response might be to show them the gun and tell them to back the hell up. The fact is I find his response to be overly aggressive. After the first shot, the attempted muggers ran and he fired on them again. People are dead because of him.

My point isn't that the people he killed were innocents, my point is that his reaction was a lot more physical and violent than what was given to him.
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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I am first in favour of the state holding monopoly on violence - as long as it exercises that monopoly.
If the situation gets to the point where state abdicates its responsibility to protect citizens from extortion, intimidation and other forms of violence then it is not only right but duty of said citizens to take on thugs themselves. It is massively unfortunate (and a great failure of policing and judging) that this guy needed to do what he did - but the fact remains that he should have done it.

Reason I think your "right to bear arms" makes perfect sense is not that you can overthrow the federal government with your handguns - but exactly because it lets you keep the government on constant notice that if they do not do their job in providing peace and order then population will do what it can to defend itself.
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Chad Ellis
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TommyP wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
TommyP wrote:
I don't have a ton of sympathy for the guys who got shot, but the fact is Goetz initiated the violence. None of them swung at him or brandished a weapon, they tried to intimidate him into handing over his money.


I think your last sentence is in contradiction with your first. If four people are deliberately intimidating a fifth in order to coerce him into doing something out of fear for his safety then that is, IMHO, a lot more violent than some physical acts.


Well, to me, shooting someone and killing them is a lot more violent than saying "give me five dollars."


I agree. I also think four guys saying, "Give me five dollars," in a deliberate effort to scare someone into giving them money is inherently violent.

If your assertion was that he escalated the violence, that would be a fact. If it was that he did so excessively, that would be reasonable. Where I think you're wrong is when you say that he initiated the violence.
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I don't admire what Goetz did, but I understand it.

Given that the four guys' allegedly surrounded him before asking for $5, how could Goetz have any faith that giving them $5 would be good enough? If he pulled out his wallet to give them $5 dollars, would they take his wallet? If he did anything to resist that, would they hurt him? If they did something to hurt him, would it kill him? If he drew the weapon to show them he was serious, would he be shot first? Once he started shooting, if someone was running away, was it just to find cover and then shoot back, or to use another passenger as a human shield?

Their alleged actions indicated that they were not playing by rules that would provide boundaries to the encounter. Goetz branched to the worst case scenario and over-reacted to the current situation, but not to the potential situation.

I often wonder about how far should you let a situation develop before nipping it. If I wake up to find a man in my house, I cannot afford to wait and see what his intentions are. Of course, that transgression is far more indicative of danger than Goetz's.

I liken this situation to tripping down a flight of stairs: you can keep from falling over if you run. Once he escalated, could he stop?
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He could have lost his wallet - that's some money plus hassle getting new driver's license etc. Instead he put at least 4 lives at risk.

Proportions, anyone?

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tscook wrote:
It is every weak and pathetic middle class chump's dream to shoot someone in their own personal action movie, bringing some excitement to their own intolerable lives.


Frank Miller fans everywhere.
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Mondainai wrote:
He could have lost his wallet - that's some money plus hassle getting new driver's license etc. Instead he put at least 4 lives at risk.

Proportions, anyone?




Definitely "at least", he's an untrained shooter in a target filled environment. Plus bullets can pass through your target and hit someone else.

Looking at the context (from the wiki), it was at a time of high crime. Violent crimes had tripled, crime was 70% higher than the rest of the country, and Goetz had been previously robbed.

Goetz testified that they surrounded him, cutting him off from the other passengers. Interestingly, the one missed shot is why he was charged with reckless endangerment.

One of the robbers said later in an interview that they had intended to rob Goetz. Goetz had read the situation correctly and feared being badly beaten-- a little more than "losing his wallet".

Ramseur- the guy who committed suicide had, "In May 1985, Ramseur held the gun while an associate raped, sodomized and robbed a pregnant eighteen-year-old woman".

Barry Allen also went on to commit more serious crimes.

Canty commited petty crimes for a few years but didn't escalate and has dropped off the radar

Cabey is owed 43million by goetz, who has paid nothing on the debt.

Goetz is a vegetarian and rescues squirrels.

I think Goetz should have paid for breaking the law. Shooting like that was a form of civil disobedience. But I completely understand why he did it and would have contributed money for his defense as the guardian angels apparently did.

---

This comes up when we have a shooting spree over bullying in schools. As a young nerd myself, I completely understand the hell of being picked on for years by football players whose bodies are weapon. When I finally snapped, I threw one of them down four steps and jumped down the steps on top of him. I could have killed him over knocking books out of my hands. But it was over a lot more than those books. He'd been riding me for weeks- probably months. I was done and I was ready to choke him and crack his skull. If I'd been 5' tall, I would have had to continued suffering or I would have gotten a weapon to equalize our sizes.
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Mondainai wrote:
He could have lost his wallet - that's some money plus hassle getting new driver's license etc. Instead he put at least 4 lives at risk.

Proportions, anyone?


What guarantee did he have that all they wanted was $5? He was implicitly threatened with voilence and defended himself and his property.

A person has a moral obligation to defend himself and his property. Was that defense actually call for in this case? I don't claim to know. Yet I think the onus is on those who contend that Getz went too far rather than the reverse.
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whac3 wrote:
What guarantee did he have that all they wanted was $5? He was implicitly threatened with voilence and defended himself and his property.

A person has a moral obligation to defend himself and his property. Was that defense actually call for in this case? I don't claim to know. Yet I think the onus is on those who contend that Getz went too far rather than the reverse.
I would think that a robber wants the money and normally doesn't use more violence than needed to get the money. There is, for good reason, harder penalties on violent crimes than property crimes.

But if it was commonplace in New York 1984 that robbers killed their victims after taking their money, then I'm more on your side.

But if not, then taking lives is a lot worse than taking money, even if the lives were those of criminals.
 
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Mondainai wrote:
whac3 wrote:
What guarantee did he have that all they wanted was $5? He was implicitly threatened with voilence and defended himself and his property.

A person has a moral obligation to defend himself and his property. Was that defense actually call for in this case? I don't claim to know. Yet I think the onus is on those who contend that Getz went too far rather than the reverse.
I would think that a robber wants the money and normally doesn't use more violence than needed to get the money. There is, for good reason, harder penalties on violent crimes than property crimes.

But if it was commonplace in New York 1984 that robbers killed their victims after taking their money, then I'm more on your side.

But if not, then taking lives is a lot worse than taking money, even if the lives were those of criminals.

Whereas I think robbery inherently violent. There's a reason robbery is traditionally in Hebrew chazaq yad which means the (more) powerful arm. Robbery is violence. When a person steals money, it's not just the money taken but all the time and labor the person put in to get that $5.

EDIT to clarify:
Robbery takes a piece of a person's life. Moreover, while every person has a moral obligation to defend himself, putting someone else's life and safety above one's own (apart from loved ones) denies the value of one's life. All life is indeed sacred, but I am responsible for safeguarding my life-- even at the cost of someone else's.
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I'm sure you'd rather have two family members losing a wallet's worth of money than one of them killed or severely abused and disabled.
 
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Mondainai wrote:
I'm sure you'd rather have two family members losing a wallet's worth of money than one of them killed or severely abused and disabled.

Sure but you're comparing apples and oranges.

I know from experience that if you let people bully you it will just escalate.
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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Mondainai wrote:
whac3 wrote:
What guarantee did he have that all they wanted was $5? He was implicitly threatened with voilence and defended himself and his property.

A person has a moral obligation to defend himself and his property. Was that defense actually call for in this case? I don't claim to know. Yet I think the onus is on those who contend that Getz went too far rather than the reverse.
I would think that a robber wants the money and normally doesn't use more violence than needed to get the money. There is, for good reason, harder penalties on violent crimes than property crimes.

But if it was commonplace in New York 1984 that robbers killed their victims after taking their money, then I'm more on your side.

But if not, then taking lives is a lot worse than taking money, even if the lives were those of criminals.


The point is not the 5 dollars, or even any other sum of money.

Point is the loss of personal dignity in being forced to do something (even if trivial) by the threat of violence.

There is no corresponding loss of dignity in simply losing one's wallet as there is in being robbed and therefore your analogy does not stand. When threatened with violence, a violent response is often only honourable way out. Only thing I can find to criticize this guy is possibly his endangerment of bystanders with a firearm but even that is moot given that he actually did not hit anyone who has not threatened him first from what I understand.
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Tom Patterson
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bramadan wrote:
Mondainai wrote:
whac3 wrote:
What guarantee did he have that all they wanted was $5? He was implicitly threatened with voilence and defended himself and his property.

A person has a moral obligation to defend himself and his property. Was that defense actually call for in this case? I don't claim to know. Yet I think the onus is on those who contend that Getz went too far rather than the reverse.
I would think that a robber wants the money and normally doesn't use more violence than needed to get the money. There is, for good reason, harder penalties on violent crimes than property crimes.

But if it was commonplace in New York 1984 that robbers killed their victims after taking their money, then I'm more on your side.

But if not, then taking lives is a lot worse than taking money, even if the lives were those of criminals.


The point is not the 5 dollars, or even any other sum of money.

Point is the loss of personal dignity in being forced to do something (even if trivial) by the threat of violence.

There is no corresponding loss of dignity in simply losing one's wallet as there is in being robbed and therefore your analogy does not stand. When threatened with violence, a violent response is often only honourable way out. Only thing I can find to criticize this guy is possibly his endangerment of bystanders with a firearm but even that is moot given that he actually did not hit anyone who has not threatened him first from what I understand.


I don't buy the argument that the loss of dignity by being forced to do something with the threat of violence means you can react in any way you choose.

Furthermore, after the first shot, when the other muggers tried to disengage, he doesn't have the right to pursue them and shoot them. If you think firing the gun was necessary, one bullet was enough to get the job done. The other shots are excessive force.
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Shooting one and letting the others run away is only a sensible strategy if you don't live locally, and can be confident that the survivors will not be presented with an opportunity to retaliate at a future date.

If you do live locally, doing a half-arsed job (the job in this case being shooting muggers) is worse than doing no job at all.
 
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Dignity? Five dollars?

Has anyone in this thread ever been assaulted by a total stranger?

Five grown men acted in a threatening manner to Goetz. The fact that they were black and he was white should objectively not (but in reality absolutely did )add to the social tension of the situation. (Five white men intimidating a black man would be similarly socially charged, I'm not making a comment on any group).

People are and were beaten (including to death) in similar public situations often, and over less than five dollars. Goetz responded in a way that I absolutely can not approve of, but can most certainly understand. And in a culture that sees Batman as the pinnacle of heroism, I'm compltely unsurprised that many people consider him a hero.

P.S. I love Batman and see him as the pinnacle of heroism. But he's make-believe.
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