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Subject: Turn Order variant rss

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Luca Tolomelli
Italy
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I was thinking to determine the turn order based upon the order in which everyone passed (not only the first, then by clockwise).

It's quite annoying being the second to pass, but the fifth or sixth to play for 5 turns in a row...

What do you think?
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Steve W
Canada
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This sounds like a cool idea.

While I haven't had the chance to test it out, I've been theorizing that happening to sit to the left of the Eridani player might be unbalanced, which your variant should help even out. Personally I find it confusing when play order doesn't go strictly in one direction, though I guess a lot of players don't have that issue.
 
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Alex Sorbello
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Albuquerque
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I pretty sure this was part of the original game, however due to making the game more accessible and faster to play, it is easier to go around the table for turn order.
Many games are employing this. Some examples are most 18xx and Agricola.
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Brian Brokaw
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Hillsboro
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lexen wrote:
...however due to making the game more accessible and faster to play, it is easier to go around the table for turn order.

After I spent quite a bit of time teaching the game yesterday, and we finished our first couple of rounds, someone pointed out that we should take turns in passing order for subsequent rounds. (We've played several other games like this, so it seemed natural to us.) I made your comment (they wanted to simplify turn order) since I had read one of the designers/publishers say that.

Needless to say, everyone thought that keeping player order was a MINOR ADDITION of complexity to an already very involved game. We immediately started keeping a turn order using an un-built interceptor.

(As it turns out however, more often than not we ended up passing in table order... it was weird.)

One problem however, is that player who have passed still have the opportunity for REACTIONS, so they technically need 2 player order tracks: one for current round player order, and one for next round player order. (So, now I can see how that is a little less "common" and may be something the designers wanted to avoid piling on.)

 
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Luca Tolomelli
Italy
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I was thinking about writing the turn order on a paper sheet.
Something like:
-----------First-----Second-----Third-----Fourth-----Fifth-----Sixth
Turn 1
Turn 2
Turn 3
Turn 4
Turn 5
Turn 6
Turn 7
Turn 8
Turn 9

Additionally in this way you don't need the Turn marker.
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Mr. Octavius
Canada
Chilliwack
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What about a small printed grid to place beside the parts board that lists:
---- This turn ---- Next turn
1
2
3
4
5
6

With little squares. Everyone places one of their extra influence disks on the sheet in starting turn order. When you pass you place a second extra influence disk on the first available 'next space' square. When the turn id over, remove the disks from 'this turn', slide the disks from 'Next turn' over to the left, and repeat.
If you end up needing your influence disks from getting the techs, then use an unbuilt ship, or an ambassador.

This would make it very easy for all players to look at the sheet and say 'Green's turn is over, Blue is next.'

In fact, if I get time I may build a quick grid for this...
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Mr. Octavius
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Chilliwack
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I liked the idea and may want to use it for my next game, so I decided to quickly whip up a grid for this. I've uploaded it to files but until I get approval you can see it in my gallery:
http://boardgamegeek.com/image/1186942/maebon
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Maciej Welc
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Wrocław (Vratislavia)
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LukeZ wrote:
What do you think?

IMO it's simple and elegant enough as it is.

On the other side I know the Caylus stable mechanism and I understand your point of view.
IMHO determining the next turn order on the passing order is wrong. Check the Reactions mechanism built into the game. It punishes ones who have already passed and react to actions of more versatile ones.

Starting the next round by the first one to pass is fine as it can help weak one to catch up by grabbing some technology for example.
The most versatile ones (ie. ones being able to act when the others have passed) would be punished with your solution.
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Adam
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Springfield
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Why not just rotate turn order? Going first does not seem to be a huge advantage, except for research. Did the playtesters try this?
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Maciej Welc
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Kaacee wrote:
Going first does not seem to be a huge advantage, except for research.

... and being able to explore the last hex left and being first who enters the hex (ie. defends last) and being able to tie enemy ships (ie. disabling them form moving further) and spreading the influence and activate colony ships to populate hexes and being first to exchange for the last ambassador.
And maybe other things that do not come to my mind at the moment.
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Adam
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macike wrote:
Kaacee wrote:
Going first does not seem to be a huge advantage, except for research.

... and being able to explore the last hex left and being first who enters the hex (ie. defends last) and being able to tie enemy ships (ie. disabling them form moving further) and spreading the influence and activate colony ships to populate hexes and being first to exchange for the last ambassador.
And maybe other things that do not come to my mind at the moment.


Yea, there is an advantage to going first, I totally agree. I am just trying to consider alternatives to keeping track of the order in which players pass. Rotating turn order seems much easier than juggling player order, and it distributes the advantage evenly.

I've played a lot of Steam. It seems minor, but keeping track of who is doing what when takes time, especially when people are taking several actions per turn.
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Maciej Welc
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Kaacee wrote:
I've played a lot of Steam.

Steam has its own track dedicated for the turn order. I never found it hard to keep track of who's moving next.
It happened sometimes that someone forgot his role (1st builder/shipper). If it is to clumsy to rewind we assume that (s)he has not used the right given by the role.
 
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JonGetsGames
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Played a 4 player game with the turn order variant last night and it worked very well.

All I did was make two stacks of numbered index cards, one with blue numbers and the other orange. I put a BIG version of the number on one side, and a small version on the other side. So the big number shows the current turn order, and as you pass you grab the top card from the other color stack and leave its small number face up. It was super easy to see the player order, and during upkeep all you had to do was flip over the small number to the big side and return the big number to a stack (and flip it over to the small side).
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JonGetsGames
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Photo of my turn order deck in progress
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My group agree with You.
We decide on such houserule:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8183658#8183658
 
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dyvim tanelorn
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If you are the Luca Tolomelli I think, we played "Vampires" together (I was Dyvim). For this issue I have printed two sets of card, 6 cards in blue from 1 to 6 and 6 cards in green from one to six. The even turn are "blue" turns and the odd turns are "green" turns. When you are in a "blue" turn and pass, you take the 1 card of the green color (the second take the 2 card, the third take the 3 card and so on)... when the "blue" turn finishes, start the "green" turn, the order is specified by the cards taken, and in this turn you use the "blue" card (now in the bank) as you used the green card before.
It is easy to do and works well.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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I already had a feeling I might switch to this variant, but after several people I introduced the game to asked why it didn't work this way (without knowing of this variant) I decided we would definitely implement it.

Did I go too far?? cool



File downloads pending review.

Edit: And I guess the image is pending review, too. laugh
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Riku Riekkinen
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We switched to turn order variant also. I think its better.
 
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Shane Larsen
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Salt Lake City
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Vanish wrote:
Did I go too far?? cool



File downloads pending review.


Maybe. But I'm glad you did because now I don't have to.
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Jim Richardson

Pennsylvania
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Vanish wrote:


Nice.

I may switch to a dedicated pass turn order, since it's obviously more fair and correct. However, I'm concerned about the loss of clockwise turn order which has existed in our games since we started playing games. Would the increased fairness be worth the many times someone will undoubtedly say "CRAP! I was supposed to go next" after the clockwise player has already taken most or all of their turn...
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Antti Autio
Finland
Helsinki
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I remember turn order being discussed during a few of the prototype playtest sessions. I think we all felt it was more intuitive and better to just let the turn go clockwise, as it would give each player time to think about their moves and put more pressure to be the first one to pass (although admittedly after one passes the others no longer have any incentive.. but being the first is more of a risk vs reward thing).

I think the most important reason was to give players a better overall idea about what is going on and eliminate confusion as to who's turn it is and who goes next and so on. This will easily translate into more thinking during your turn and more downtime for others. These are a problem in all games where turn order keeps bouncing all over the table, even though there are quite a few.

That being said, this kind of variants won't change the gameplay radically and will probably work fine if the group is up for it.
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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Files for my cards as pictured above are now posted. I printed them as full size cards but honestly, I would make them half size if I did it again.

Eclipse Turn Order Variant Cards (Black)
Eclipse Turn Order Variant Cards (White)

Also, I am going to do a black version with the space for a die (to show your next turn order) as suggested on the original photo page.
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Stephen Michael Hickey
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The mechanic of having a current turn order (top row) and a turn order for the next round (bottom row) works well,without any additional effort/confusion in Age of Empires III.



It could be implemented with 2 tokens in each players colour and a simple graphic image of two rows by 6 players (see image).

This mechanic makes for tougher strategic choices: whether to take another action and risk losing initiative in the next round. Yet another sublimely simple euro mechanic to enhance the game further.

At the end of each round, simply remove the top row tokens and move the bottom row tokens up to the top row.Hey presto, the new turn order is resolved and players now have their tokens back in hand, ready to place on the bottom row for when they next pass.
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Jeff Burgess
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It was getting pretty common to see that in the first few rounds, a few people would take the same number of actions (say, 3) and maybe 1-2 players would eek out 1-2 more actions. It led to the 'first player' remaining first player a lot. This doesn't really change that - nor should it - but the advantage is really in whoever is sitting left of that player - maybe they do 6 actions, but still get to go 2nd just due to seating.

We've started playing with it as well. You need to make sure your group annouces when they are done their turn so people don't get lost. It does complicate the game a bit and lead to more 'Who's turn is it, anyways' situations.

I've been using the turn order markers from Belfort for this (I haven't played with 6). When you pass, grab the appropriate number from that player and flip it to the grey side. The other few peoply may need to swtich tiles around to maintain the current turn order (that's pretty quick and rare), but at least it's not a whole extra track to maintain.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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With 3 or 4 players we haven't noticed much of a difference. With 6 players this variant greatly alleviates the "there's nothing left for me and nothing I could do about it" times.
 
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