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No Retreat! The Russian Front» Forums » Rules

Subject: CBs and forts rss

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Marcus
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Hi,

forts (white combat strength) can participate in CBs (so says the rules).

Is this "can" a must, if the fort is the only unit which is adjacent to an enemy with a CB marker?
Or is the "can" a can, meaning the phasing player can decide if they attack or not (which would be against the rules).


What bothers me:
This way forts don't last very long and I find it somehow disturbing, that units in a safe fort will go out and fight against a unit with 4x their strength.
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Rojack wrote:
Is this "can" a must, if the fort is the only unit which is adjacent to an enemy with a CB marker?
Or is the "can" a can, meaning the phasing player can decide if they attack or not (which would be against the rules).

Right, it's a "must" if the fort is the only eligible unit.

Rojack wrote:
I find it somehow disturbing, that units in a safe fort will go out and fight against a unit with 4x their strength.

That's not what a counterblow represents, though: think of it as the non-phasing player attacking the phasing player. That's why the non-phasing player can't place a counterblow marker on a hex containing only white-strength units, and doesn't get any terrain benefits, etc.
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andrea pagni
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I think that the original question has not been answered, and I fully agree with him:

if The CB is placed by the non phasing player on its own stack.. forcing the fort to attack ALONE at (probably) very unfavorable odds abd thus being likely reduced.. and being then eliminated in the next turn where the now in phase player will find the fort on its non fort side.

This can be easily achieved by the germans agains both leningrad and sevastopol.

A little tougher to be carried out agains moscow due to map configuration

andrea

 
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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If you don't keep another unit nearby to relieve the CB, then the fort is thematically "isolated". Lesson: try to keep another unit nearby.
 
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Carl Paradis
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sdiberar wrote:
If you don't keep another unit nearby to relieve the CB, then the fort is thematically "isolated". Lesson: try to keep another unit nearby.


Well spoken. I explain this in the players notes, too.
 
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Alex
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licinius wrote:
sdiberar wrote:
If you don't keep another unit nearby to relieve the CB, then the fort is thematically "isolated". Lesson: try to keep another unit nearby.


Well spoken. I explain this in the players notes, too.


I think its too easy to hold a fort, if you really want too... especially those "always in suply forts"
 
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andrea pagni
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let's take leningrad as en example:

ignoring finland, there are 3 hexes adjacent. one woods directly W, one wood SW and one SE marsh.

The german are in the 2 woods, an additional russian army is in the marsh,

In this situation the fort is far from isolated or not supported, yet if the germans place a CB on the hex directly west of leningrad, the fort unit is in big troubles, and the otrher supporting army can't do a thing


 
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Alex
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please check your spelling again, i don't fully understand what you are saying
 
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andrea pagni
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the example is just to show that fort units, even if they have adjacent friendly armies, can be rather easily lead to make suicidal CB attacks. This is specially true for leningrad.
 
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Alex
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if i understand you right you still would need 2-3 SPARE cards as the german player... this still would only result in a 10%-50% probabillity of cracking the fort... and then you still have to attack and succeed! (without Finland!) it's still not EASY!

Alex
 
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andrea pagni
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only 1 card to place the CB.. then it greatly depends on the strenght that you are mustering

not a sure shot, but far from impossible.. and you can do it in a row if necessary
 
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Carl Paradis
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i do not think its too easy to hold a fort. Most of these historically held up for a VERY long time, or were never taken.

of course a supported fort ( i.e: with friendly units adjacent) is very hard to take, and this is intended.

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Grzegorz Kulesza
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This thread is old, but my question is related, so I don't see a reason to open a new one.

A white-strength unit (namely, Leningrad Fortress) reacts to a CB against a hex with 5 Axis combat factors, giving the attack 1:1 odds. The roll is a 4, resulting in a CB. However, CBs cannot normally be placed on white-strength units. Does this mean that the combat has no effect, or does that rule only apply to placing CBs in the Counterblow Step of the Combat Phase?
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Carl Paradis
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Tevery Best wrote:
This thread is old, but my question is related, so I don't see a reason to open a new one.

A white-strength unit (namely, Leningrad Fortress) reacts to a CB against a hex with 5 Axis combat factors, giving the attack 1:1 odds. The roll is a 4, resulting in a CB. However, CBs cannot normally be placed on white-strength units. Does this mean that the combat has no effect, or does that rule only apply to placing CBs in the Counterblow Step of the Combat Phase?


CB's cannot be put on white-strength units during the [10.1.2] Counterblow Step ONLY. But nothing forbids this for CB results on the Combat table.

So you do put a CB marker on the Fort.
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Grzegorz Kulesza
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Thanks a lot! It's as if you never sleep, Mr Paradis, always on the lookout for wayward players who are in the wrong or seek the guiding hand to explain the intricacies of the manual. You truly are a hero this community deserves.

Thanks again.
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Carl Paradis
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Tevery Best wrote:
Thanks a lot! It's as if you never sleep, Mr Paradis, always on the lookout for wayward players who are in the wrong or seek the guiding hand to explain the intricacies of the manual. You truly are a hero this community deserves.

Thanks again.


LOL! Oh I sleep all right. And I'm a gamer first, not a hero: games are my passion.

"In the Soviet army it takes a lot of courage not to be a hero" (STALIN).
 
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Grzegorz Kulesza
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Another related question: if a CB is put on a Fort due to a combat result in the Soviet turn, can the Germans use Siege Artillery on their turn to bring the Fort down? In other terms, does using Siege Artillery require that a Target marker be placed on the hex?

The card text says "Target Hex", but there's no definition of a "Target Hex" in the manual. The phrase appears capitalised when referring to those under Target Markers and not capitalised when referring to CB'd hexes or both. This makes me unsure whether or not it can be used in the case of a CB.
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Carl Paradis
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Tevery Best wrote:
Another related question: if a CB is put on a Fort due to a combat result in the Soviet turn, can the Germans use Siege Artillery on their turn to bring the Fort down? In other terms, does using Siege Artillery require that a Target marker be placed on the hex?

The card text says "Target Hex", but there's no definition of a "Target Hex" in the manual. The phrase appears capitalised when referring to those under Target Markers and not capitalised when referring to CB'd hexes or both. This makes me unsure whether or not it can be used in the case of a CB.


Mhhh... Good question. I would say that you can use the card.
 
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Matt
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Follow up question... let's say a (1) Volkssturm and a 3-4 infantry army are defending Königsberg. Next to the city are two large Soviet stacks, with a combat strength of 13 each (one 6-4 tank and one 7-3 infantry in each). It is the Germans turn, they opt to not attack. The Soviets play two cards to place counterblows on each stack.

Is it permissible to have only the 3-4 infantry respond to the counterblow (since it is adjacent to both stacks)? Sure, it would get likely be annihilated, but at least the fort unit would survive into the subsequent Soviet turn, slow them down, and possibly survive.

Edit: The part that got me thinking about this is section 10.1.2 (top of page 10). The third bullet says that "any of the phasing player's adjacent units can respond...". I noticed the omission of the word "all". So...
 
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Carl Paradis
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madhatter wrote:
Follow up question... let's say a (1) Volkssturm and a 3-4 infantry army are defending Königsberg. Next to the city are two large Soviet stacks, with a combat strength of 13 each (one 6-4 tank and one 7-3 infantry in each). It is the Germans turn, they opt to not attack. The Soviets play two cards to place counterblows on each stack.

Is it permissible to have only the 3-4 infantry respond to the counterblow (since it is adjacent to both stacks)? Sure, it would get likely be annihilated, but at least the fort unit would survive into the subsequent Soviet turn, slow them down, and possibly survive.

Edit: The part that got me thinking about this is section 10.1.2 (top of page 10). The third bullet says that "any of the phasing player's adjacent units can respond...". I noticed the omission of the word "all". So...


You are correct. Not all units need to respond. As long as all counterblow counters are attacked.

BUT there is a catch! devil

Read rule 10.7.2 Counterattacks, fist bullet:

Unengaged Units: It could happen in such battles that
only some units in a hex are being (counter)attacked,
but not others. That is allowed, however only the
participating units are affected by all combat results; the
“unengaged” units will suffer only the Retreat results.


So if you attack at low odds, the result might very well be a "CA", and if you have a retreat result in the following counterattack, then the Volkssturm unit will be permanently eliminated from the game...

So what are the odds there?

At 3 vs 13 (1-4) you have an automatic "CA"... Ouch.
The Counterattack will be on the 4-1 Soviet table (assuming no event card play). you have a 66% chance of success (4 retreat results vs 2 Exchange results). If you can boost the odds two columns to 6-1, you have a 83% chance for the Soviets... Byebye Volksturm unit!
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Matt
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Actually, in my example there were two stacks with 13 combat strength. So, the defenders in Königsberg are facing an overwhelming, combined counterblow strength of 26. With or without the Volkssturm, the odds would be 6-1. I believe it is worth it to have only the infantry respond to the counterblow.

This is how I see it playing out... the German attack would be lower than 1-3 odds and convert into an automatic CA result. The Soviets attack at 6-1. Here are the possible results:

EX - destroys the 3-4 infantry and the Volkssturm survives into the Soviet turn
DD, DD - same as above
DR, DR - the 3-4 infantry doesn't retreat and the Volkssturm is eliminated
DS - the 3-4 infantry is shattered and the Volkssturm survives into the Soviet turn

In every outcome, one of the two defenders stays in the hex and prevents the Soviets from advancing. With four out of six of those outcomes the Volkssturm survives. If it does, on the following Soviet turn it will endure an attack at 6-1 odds. It has a 50% chance of keeping the Soviets out of Königsberg (EX, DR, DR). Yes, it will be destroyed, but it just bought the Germans one more turn of time (extremely valuable when attempting to keep the Soviets far away from objective hexes in 1945).

Section 14.11 reads like this...

Special Ability: When a defending hex contains a Volks–
sturm unit, treat a DR (Defender Retreat) result as No
Effect (as if the Volkssturm unit were Fortified Infantry).
However, after this combat result conversion is applied,
the Volkssturm unit is permanently eliminated from the game
(even if stacked with a regular Fort unit).

So, this means that the Volkssturm just needs to be stacked with the 3-4 infantry to convert a DR into a No Effect result (not attacking with it). Volkssturm have no special benefits to convert a DS, right?
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Carl Paradis
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OK let's recap this again... I might have goofed a bit.


EX - destroys the 3-4 infantry and the Volkssturm survives into the Soviet turn

Right!

DD, DD - same as above

Nope! DD result says:

"DD = Defender Destroyed: Defender retreats his units
two hexes and each defending unit loses one step. "

Since there is a Retreat, the Volksturm has to move away as per rule 10.7.2:

Unengaged Units: It could happen in such battles that
only some units in a hex are being (counter)attacked,
but not others. That is allowed, however only the
participating units are affected by all combat results; the
“unengaged” units will suffer only the Retreat results.


DR, DR - the 3-4 infantry doesn't retreat and the Volkssturm is eliminated

Mhhh. Ok I will agree for this one, even if the Volksturm is not involved in the combat, I will agree. But my designer's intent was that the Volksturm has to be in the battle.

The rule wording is:

"Special Ability: When a defending hex contains a Volks–
sturm unit, treat a DR (Defender Retreat) result as No
Effect (as if the Volkssturm unit were Fortified Infantry)".

I should have said:

"Special Ability: When a defender in a battle includes a Volks–
sturm unit, treat a DR (Defender Retreat) result as No
Effect (as if the Volkssturm unit were Fortified Infantry)".

but let the rule stay as-is. No big deal. let's say it represents hasty fortifications.

DS - the 3-4 infantry is shattered and the Volkssturm survives into the Soviet turn

Again, there is a retreat result in there too.

"DS = Defender Shattered: Defender retreats his units
two hexes and, if not destroyed, place them in Shattered
Units Box."

Since there is a Retreat, the Volksturm has to move away as per rule 10.7.2:

In every outcome, one of the two defenders stays in the hex and prevents the Soviets from advancing.

As you can see above,this is incorrect.

Keeping all the rules as-is, this will happen:

EX = Volks stays.
DR = Volks is destroyed. German infantry Unit Stays.
DS = German infantry is Shattered, Volks must retreat. No unit stay in hex.
DD = German infantry is destroyed, Volks must retreat. No unit stay in hex.
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Matt
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Ok, so, in the case of a DD or DS, the 3-4 infantry takes a step loss and the Volks is retreated, not eliminated, right? It sounds like the conversion of DR to "No effect" is only on an actual DR result on the CRT, not as the side effect of a DD or DS.

Now, as an alternative approach, if I had the Volkssturm respond to the CB, perhaps the Germans chance for holding out would be better.

1-26 odds converts to an auto 6-1 Soviet attack (thank God there are no overruns in this game).
The CRT shows:

EX - Volks eliminated, infantry stays
DR, DR - Volks prevents DR and is eliminated, infantry stays
DS - Volks goes to the shattered box, infantry retreats?
DD, DD, - Volks eliminated, infantry retreats?

The above is based on the ruling for unengaged units:

Unengaged Units: It could happen in such battles that
only some units in a hex are being (counter)attacked,
but not others. That is allowed, however only the
participating units are affected by all combat results; the
“unengaged” units will suffer only the Retreat results.

I'm interpreting "Retreat results" means as a result of a DR on the CRT, and not on a DS or DD.

"Mhhh. Ok I will agree for this one, even if the Volksturm is not involved in the combat, I will agree. But my designer's intent was that the Volksturm has to be in the battle."

What do you recommend here? It seems that I'm leveraging the rules as they are written, but breaking the spirit of your design.
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David desJardins
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madhatter wrote:
I'm interpreting "Retreat results" means as a result of a DR on the CRT, and not on a DS or DD.


That's clearly wrong.
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Matt
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DaviddesJ wrote:
madhatter wrote:
I'm interpreting "Retreat results" means as a result of a DR on the CRT, and not on a DS or DD.


That's clearly wrong.


Perhaps, though I'm curious to hear Carl's reply. If it turns out to be the case, the Volkssturm should be eliminated on a DR, DS, and DD result, prevent any retreating, and permit the infantry to stay in the hex.
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