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Subject: Monsters: must you be on the same space to defeat a monster with a spell? rss

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Joshua Lobkowicz
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A handful of spells/items say "defeat a monster"

As written this seems to imply that one can defeat any monster anywhere, but, is this correct?

Or must one be in the same location as a monster in order to defeat it in this manner?

Thanks in advance.

-Josh
 
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Bob Jonas
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I think it is implicit that you must be pursuing the adventure that the monster is on in order for that to work.
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Eric Dodd
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Since a monster is always bound to a location, you have to be on, or travel to the location with a monster to kill it, I think.

No indication of being able to kill a monster on a different location.
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Jim Cote
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I've always played that way too, but...

Devil's Advocate: You can play some cards on other players. Do you have to be in the same location for those too?
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Chris Lawson
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ekted wrote:
I've always played that way too, but...

Devil's Advocate: You can play some cards on other players. Do you have to be in the same location for those too?

There are only two cards that I would allow to be played on another Investigator (located in the same or different room). Both are Spells.

Cloud Memory: Discard to fully restore any Investigator's Sanity.
Heal: Discard to fully restore any Investigator's Stamina.

I would only allow these Spells to be played during the Investigator's turn who has the card. The reason I would allow then to be on another Investigator who isn't in the same location is because they say "any Investigator..." and not "any Investigator... in the same location".
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Chris Lawson
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Karmic_devil wrote:
A handful of spells/items say "defeat a monster"

As written this seems to imply that one can defeat any monster anywhere, but, is this correct?

Or must one be in the same location as a monster in order to defeat it in this manner?

The following is based on a reply I had from Richard Launius, but please bear in mind that (at his request) it should be treated as unofficial.

Flute of the Outer Gods (Unique Item). "Discard after rolling to defeat one monster".
Bind Monster (Spell). "Discard to defeat 1 monster".

Playing these cards counts as completing a task. You roll the dice and then you decide if you want to play either card*. This means no matter what you roll on the dice, you have the knowledge that you can complete a task no matter how bad you roll.

Since playing the card means you completed a task, you cannot in addition complete another task using the dice you just rolled (unless you are Amanda Sharpe)

Since playing the card means you completed a task, you can ignore any Terror results on the Adventure card (because Terror effects only apply when you fail a Task).

Since playing the card is an automatic "complete a task", then for me it strengthens the fact that you may only play the card on a monster in the same location as your Investigator. The rules are clear that you may only complete those tasks that are in the same location as your Investigator.


* Please note that I play Spells as they are implemented in Elder Sign: Omens. Spells are spent after the dice have been rolled, not before as the rulebook states (this has also been confirmed by Richard Launius).

This explains why only Flute of the Outer Gods states "Discard after rolling". Since Flute is a Unique Item it would normally be played before rolling the dice (the cards therefore needs to state this rule change). Bind Monster doesn't need this note because it seems the correct way to play Spells is after the dice roll.
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Joshua Lobkowicz
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Thanks, guys.
 
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Joshua Lobkowicz
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xris wrote:

* Please note that I play Spells as they are implemented in Elder Sign: Omens. Spells are spent after the dice have been rolled, not before as the rulebook states (this has also been confirmed by Richard Launius).

This explains why only Flute of the Outer Gods states "Discard after rolling". Since Flute is a Unique Item it would normally be played before rolling the dice (the cards therefore needs to state this rule change). Bind Monster doesn't need this note because it seems the correct way to play Spells is after the dice roll.


Interesting.
I intend to keep playing spells BEFORE I roll the dice. I don't think this one needs any help being made easier for the investigators.
 
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Joshua Lobkowicz
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ekted wrote:
I've always played that way too, but...

Devil's Advocate: You can play some cards on other players. Do you have to be in the same location for those too?


Abilities too.
Like the doctor says he can heal 1 health of any chat (including himself) at the start of his turn.

Must he be present to do so?
He must be in arkham, though here if healing is the first thing he can do, he couldn't move to someone. They would have to move to him to get a healing, in which case they might as well just go the the entrance.

It's weird he can mend you from across the museum.
 
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Chris Lawson
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Karmic_devil wrote:
ekted wrote:
I've always played that way too, but...

Devil's Advocate: You can play some cards on other players. Do you have to be in the same location for those too?


Abilities too.
Like the doctor says he can heal 1 health of any chat (including himself) at the start of his turn.

Must he be present to do so?
He must be in arkham, though here if healing is the first thing he can do, he couldn't move to someone. They would have to move to him to get a healing, in which case they might as well just go the the entrance.

It's weird he can mend you from across the museum.

The rules are totally silent on how any of the Special Abilities are meant to be applied.

I take it that Vincent Lee and Carolyn Fern do not need to be in the same location. Thematically, they treat their patient at the start of their turn and then move to the location of their choice.

Don't forget that "At the start of Vincent's / Carolyn's turn" means before Step 1 (Move). It doesn't say "At the start of Resolve an Adventure... ".
So, at the start of their turn they heal someone and then they perform Step 1 (Move) followed by Step 2 (Resolve an Adventure, etc).

What I find weird is that in game terms a Lucky Cigarette Case is the same as a .45 Automatic!
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Joe Pilkus
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xris,

Having played with Richard at the event a few months ago, he wasn't particularly enamored by the way Spells are currently employed in the game and we played that you could cast the Spell after the roll. As to defeating Monsters, either of the aforementioned Spells (Flute of the Outer Gods or Bind Monster) eliminates it without having to satisfy the other requirements (i.e. Advancing the Clock, Loss of Sanity/Stamina, etc.).

The only two House Rules we've added include Investigators may trade/exchange items (provided that they're in the same space) and Monsters added to the bottom of a Adventure Card possessing an arrow DOES NOT become a "next task" in the list but remains separate and distinct.
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Jim Cote
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The Professor wrote:
...Monsters added to the bottom of a Adventure Card possessing an arrow DOES NOT become a "next task" in the list but remains separate and distinct.

So you can kill them first?
 
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Chris Lawson
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ekted wrote:
The Professor wrote:
...Monsters added to the bottom of a Adventure Card possessing an arrow DOES NOT become a "next task" in the list but remains separate and distinct.

So you can kill them first?

Not just first, using this houserule you can complete the Monster task at any time (with the usual restriction of only completing one task at a time).

Normally, with an Adventure card that has arrowed tasks, you can only attempt the tasks in order (starting at the top working down). You start with task 1, once complete you then move onto task 2, etc.

Now, with arrowed tasks, you roll the dice and you may either complete task 1 or the Monster task. If you complete task 1 then you may either complete task 2 or the Monster task with the next roll. Once you complete the Monster task then you go back to the usual rules for arrowed tasks.

I also use this houserule.
 
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Joe Pilkus
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Yes, that's the way we play. Otherwise, placing the Monsters at the bottom of an Adventure Card could potentially make it impossible to complete it.
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Joshua Lobkowicz
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ekted wrote:
The Professor wrote:
...Monsters added to the bottom of a Adventure Card possessing an arrow DOES NOT become a "next task" in the list but remains separate and distinct.

So you can kill them first?


I have read this elsewhere and we have been playing that monsters disregard the arrows. As in, when you are adventuring you may take on the monster at will: roll the dice (attempt to do something useful on an adventure) and based on your ability (the roll) you decide whether you would be better served rushing to deal with the vermin in the pipes (doing task one) OR clubbing the monster nearby.(take on the monster attempting to interfere with your progress.

I think it works.

This game is incredibly inelegant, but still a lot of fun.

We were finding it very easy so we tried to make it a little more difficult by removing an adventure card (playing with 5 instead of six). This lead to tougher decisions about which to take on, made monsters scarier faster, and led to a game where we nearly had to face the GOO. It was Yig, and he was one doom token away from waking up when we sealed him. That was much more satisfying.

-Josh
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Tony C
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Hot off the press from the faq just posted:

"What do items mean when they say “defeat” a monster?
When a player uses an item/spell that “defeats” a monster,
that player chooses a monster in play (not necessarily
at the same adventure his investigator is at) and turns
that monster facedown. None of the monster’s costs must
be paid (such as advancing the clock or losing sanity/
stamina) and all of that monster’s tasks are considered
to be completed. The monster is collected as a trophy
when the player’s turn ends (and not before), whether the
investigator succeeds at the adventure or not."

I definitely play that you can try a monster's task before the card's tasks.
 
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Steve Duff
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dtcarson wrote:
Hot off the press from the faq just posted:

"When a player uses an item/spell that “defeats” a monster,
that player chooses a monster in play (not necessarily
at the same adventure his investigator is at)
...


Wow, what a surprising ruling. Playing a cigarette case or whatever causes a monster to drop dead 3 rooms away from me, *and* I get it as a trophy.

Quote:
I definitely play that you can try a monster's task before the card's tasks.


As long as it's not an arrow card.

That ruling makes sense to me, there was no reason for the rules to specify adding monsters below the cards if order didn't matter.
 
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Gareth Roberts
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
dtcarson wrote:
Hot off the press from the faq just posted:

"When a player uses an item/spell that “defeats” a monster,
that player chooses a monster in play (not necessarily
at the same adventure his investigator is at)
...


Wow, what a surprising ruling. Playing a cigarette case or whatever causes a monster to drop dead 3 rooms away from me, *and* I get it as a trophy.



Second hand smoke kills. Ok.
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Jonathan Franklin
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Naw. I'm with Steve. I think we will house rule that one to diverge from the FAQ.
 
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ioticus
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I'm still not sure if you get the locked die on a monster immediately after defeating it (but before completing an adventure).
 
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Chris Lawson
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ioticus wrote:
I'm still not sure if you get the locked die on a monster immediately after defeating it (but before completing an adventure).

I think there are two main schools of thought here.

(i) The dice only becomes available at the end of your turn (at the same time you gain the trophy)

or

(ii) Since the monster is "turned over" then the dice must become unlocked immediately because the lock symbol is no longer present.

I prefer (ii) over (i) myself but people will have to decide how this is ruled for themselves, I don't think the rules or FAQ helps one way or the other.
 
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Joe Pilkus
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For us, we play by the following rules:

1.) Unlocked dice may be used immediately, provided that Investigtaor has another Common or Unique item to discard to take advantgae of the recently liberated die.

2.) Monsters added to an Adventure Card with an Arrow NEVER become the next task in the list of tasks.
 
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