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Lack of negative LOD , this puzzles me because it seem lot of ppl really really vent their hate in Castle Ravenloft game system thats also the same as LoD system.

do is mean LoD now much better than CR? or is it that those people who hate CR now gone and dont buy DnD boardgame again?

Hows the improvement from CR to LOD? both use the same system and LoD even dont have spellcaster. Do Encounter Card in CR really really bad and now its toned down in LOD ? Do the famous characters in drizzt novels improve the adventures and storylines from previous DnD boardgame ?

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dprijadi wrote:
or is it that those people who hate CR now gone and dont buy DnD boardgame again?





I think this is a major part of it. Most be seem to think this is the best of the lot and many small improvements have been made:

More interesting heroes (especially the 'stances' that can mix up the monster phase)
More interesting tiles/maps
More interesting/thematic encounters
Better balance of items

I've only played this one but i played with a couple of friends who had played Ravencroft. They said Ravencroft was 'okay but nothing special', yet both enjoyed Drizzt a lot more.

It's the same basic thing so i don't think it's going to change anyones opionion completly but it sounds like most everything is a little better and this ends up making a big change...


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dprijadi wrote:
or is it that those people who hate CR now gone and dont buy DnD boardgame again?


It is probably as you say. Legend of Drizzt, although better, is not THAT different from Castle Ravenloft.
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A lot of the earlier dungeon tourists did not read their brochures properly and mistook Count Strahd's "hospitality" for "random shit keeps happening to me".
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chromaticdragon wrote:
A lot of the earlier dungeon tourists did not read their brochures properly and mistook Count Strahd's "hospitality" for "random shit keeps happening to me".


true that, i appreciate ppl who post reviews on CR even if they dont like the system. but posting a nasty hate and opinion filled rant disguised as a review because they dont like the system is pointless. i wade thru lots of rants disguised as reviews on CR forum and most of them are just forcing their opinion on ppl that CR is bad and ppl who like them must be sad lot.

btw thanks for your CR review ;-) cant wait to see your review on LoD..

where u play in singapore? i usually visit singapore and shop at bogas.com
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Denny, i was so utterly disappointed with CR that the other two releases mean nothing to me.

I'm very glad that players love and support this line, but i think they are the worst games ever. Next up is a D&D Eurogame called "Waterdeep", we'll see how that goes
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dprijadi wrote:
do is mean LoD now much better than CR? or is it that those people who hate CR now gone and dont buy DnD boardgame again?


I think the second option counts in that and I've heard the mechanics are better.
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dprijadi wrote:
chromaticdragon wrote:
A lot of the earlier dungeon tourists did not read their brochures properly and mistook Count Strahd's "hospitality" for "random shit keeps happening to me".


true that, i appreciate ppl who post reviews on CR even if they dont like the system. but posting a nasty hate and opinion filled rant disguised as a review because they dont like the system is pointless. i wade thru lots of rants disguised as reviews on CR forum and most of them are just forcing their opinion on ppl that CR is bad and ppl who like them must be sad lot.

btw thanks for your CR review ;-) cant wait to see your review on LoD..

where u play in singapore? i usually visit singapore and shop at bogas.com

I'm sort of a reactive reviewer so if nobody disses LoD, I would rather spend my time making custom components for these games.

I have 2 siblings (with Indonesian in-laws) who also love these games so I mostly play with them. Yup, I get a lot of stuff from bogas as well.
 
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Well I have been saying "negative" things about LoD since it came out. I never did a whole review though. I do love the game and the series, but I am very disappointed by lot of content in LoD.

The Cavern Tile back was needless and frustrating change to an otherwise "100%" compatible game line.

The villains are very basic and boring for the third installment (move and swing).

The heroes' stance powers and powers that allow them to act out of the hero phase (although tactically fun) reduce the monster deck to ruins and takes the challenge down to yawn worthy levels.

The "nerfed" encounter deck is lacking the edge of the previous games. The volcanic vents are the only scary ones, and they aren't effective all the time.

Non monster cards in the monster deck? Another yawn. That would have been a needed break back in CR, but the war machines that are Drizzt and Company can take more monsters than supplied.

With several thousand pages of literature to base this off of- you'd think the equipment and monsters would all be accurate/from the books? Charon's claw = poison? Where is the ash?! Water elementals? They show up once as a background mechanic in the last book.

Overall it seemed like a lot of thought and work went into the hero abilities and the rest of the game was an afterthought. There feels like a lot of play testing was not done (due to multiple typos on the hero materials) and severe imbalances in the rest of the villains/monsters.

But I love DnD and Drizzt, so I bought it. And I will keep playing it, although we need severe house rules and custom content (Like Dragon's advanced AI).
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..and there we have it - the first negative "review" and a good one at that. laugh

Vayda highlights many valid points but I think the game was intentionally aimed at fans of Drizzt who are casual gamers expecting a summer-blockbuster experience and not halloween-horror. In that sense, it does succeed.

What I do find very interesting is how the composition and combination of hero powers, monster deck, encounter deck and treasure deck have really differentiated the 3 games in the series, without any significant change in the core rules.
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There are a few points I see differently than virferrorum. I put my thoughts in italics into the quoted text:

virferrorum wrote:
Well I have been saying "negative" things about LoD since it came out. I never did a whole review though. I do love the game and the series, but I am very disappointed by lot of content in LoD.

The Cavern Tile back was needless and frustrating change to an otherwise "100%" compatible game line.

I welcome the different tile backs since it allows to distinguish between two graphically and thematically different tile sets. I don't want to mix natural cavern tiles with the corridors of Strahd's castle as it would look completely out of place to me. Instead, I can easily create adventures starting in one location and then moving over to another.

The villains are very basic and boring for the third installment (move and swing).

The mind flayer and Jarlaxle keep throwing their underlings the Heroes' way while Yvonnel Baenre stands back and floods you with encounter cards and Shimmergloom cannot be attacked from a distance. The only villain I was disappointed in was Artemis as I find him too easy.

The heroes' stance powers and powers that allow them to act out of the hero phase (although tactically fun) reduce the monster deck to ruins and takes the challenge down to yawn worthy levels.
If either Guen or Snort charge a monster that deals 2 damage (e.g. the Water Elemental, Feral Troll, Dinin, Goblin Champion), they don't last very long. The only overpowered out of turn stance is Drizzt's, in my opinion. Catti-brie has to give up either the high damage potential or the self-healing when selecting the out-of-turn stance, and I hardly ever find Bruenor's retaliation to be useful after the very first round. Since entering these stances eliminates the attack option during the Hero Phase, I don't think they are as strong as they are made out to be (exception Drizzt's in combination with Twinkle).


The "nerfed" encounter deck is lacking the edge of the previous games. The volcanic vents are the only scary ones, and they aren't effective all the time.

One of the biggest points of criticism for Castle Ravenloft was the encounter deck which was too damaging. This one can still pack a punch (some of the traps for instance) but is more forgiving and provides more variety with effects such as tile and monster addition, hero removal and curses. I like how the encounter cards are tied to the tile deck (the volcanic vents).

Non monster cards in the monster deck? Another yawn. That would have been a needed break back in CR, but the war machines that are Drizzt and Company can take more monsters than supplied.

This is nicely balanced with Hunting Party cards that add an additional monster. While Drizzt himself certainly counts among the strongest Heroes, all 18 mix nicely with each other and some of the older Heroes are more powerful than some LoD Heroes.

With several thousand pages of literature to base this off of- you'd think the equipment and monsters would all be accurate/from the books? Charon's claw = poison? Where is the ash?! Water elementals? They show up once as a background mechanic in the last book.

I think the game does a tremendous job of encompassing as much as possible of the novels. Each and every item is somehow related to the books, and so are the encounter cards. I totally agree about the choice of water elementals as there would have been more fitting options, but otherwise everything is thematically fitting.

Overall it seemed like a lot of thought and work went into the hero abilities and the rest of the game was an afterthought. There feels like a lot of play testing was not done (due to multiple typos on the hero materials) and severe imbalances in the rest of the villains/monsters.

Yes, the typos shouldn't have happened. But imbalances? Aside from the adventure in which Entreri has to take on all other heroes, I haven't encountered any serious issues.

But I love DnD and Drizzt, so I bought it. And I will keep playing it, although we need severe house rules and custom content (Like Dragon's advanced AI).
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1. CR had huge pre-relaease hype. It was supposed to be the dungeon crawl to end all dungeon crawls, and soloable, too. The expectations were so high that the game couldn't help but fail to meet them. There were also some genuinely buggy rules, balance issues, and the gameplay felt kind of repetitive. A lot of people felt betrayed and ripped off, and the reviews reflect that.

2. The pre-release hype for WoA and LoD was much more cautious, so any disappointment factor was lessened.

3. WoA did incorporate some minor corrections/improvements to gameplay as compared to CR, and LoD has still more, I hear.

Add it all together, and it just seems logical that CR has taken most of the heat.
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Cracky wrote:
Denny, i was so utterly disappointed with CR that the other two releases mean nothing to me.

I'm very glad that players love and support this line, but i think they are the worst games ever. Next up is a D&D Eurogame called "Waterdeep", we'll see how that goes


hi cracky , its ok everyone hav their own taste in games, i cant bear any eurotrash games at all.. as for negative reviews , in fact when i research a game i look for negative review first.. i love negative review that really show the bad and the ugly stuff but i dont really like a review where it sounds like someone got an axe to grind hehehe.. too much subjective opinion and not enough info..

cheers
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virferrorum wrote:
Well I have been saying "negative" things about LoD since it came out. I never did a whole review though. I do love the game and the series, but I am very disappointed by lot of content in LoD.

The Cavern Tile back was needless and frustrating change to an otherwise "100%" compatible game line.

The villains are very basic and boring for the third installment (move and swing).

The heroes' stance powers and powers that allow them to act out of the hero phase (although tactically fun) reduce the monster deck to ruins and takes the challenge down to yawn worthy levels.

The "nerfed" encounter deck is lacking the edge of the previous games. The volcanic vents are the only scary ones, and they aren't effective all the time.

Non monster cards in the monster deck? Another yawn. That would have been a needed break back in CR, but the war machines that are Drizzt and Company can take more monsters than supplied.

With several thousand pages of literature to base this off of- you'd think the equipment and monsters would all be accurate/from the books? Charon's claw = poison? Where is the ash?! Water elementals? They show up once as a background mechanic in the last book.

Overall it seemed like a lot of thought and work went into the hero abilities and the rest of the game was an afterthought. There feels like a lot of play testing was not done (due to multiple typos on the hero materials) and severe imbalances in the rest of the villains/monsters.

But I love DnD and Drizzt, so I bought it. And I will keep playing it, although we need severe house rules and custom content (Like Dragon's advanced AI).


vayda, if im correct your statement mean LoD is too easy compared to the previous games? btw how do you find CR with drizzt and companion of the hall playing the heroes against Count Strhad? is it still easy?
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dprijadi wrote:
do is mean LoD now much better than CR? or is it that those people who hate CR now gone and dont buy DnD boardgame again?


I think it's a combination of both. The games have been making incremental improvements, but the games are similar enough that people who won't like the game even with the changes already know they won't like the new ones so they don't bother.

FWIW because of a sudden shift in my schedule I've only played LoD twice despite buying it on release day so I don't have a strong opinion on it yet, but my first impressions agree quite heavily with that of Vayda. I also feel like there were a lot more typos and other screwups in this game compared to the previous two, to the extent that if I had the time I was going to make a catch-all errors thread.
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Thanks for the feedback! I will answer some questions or clarify...

Yes, I do feel the heroes make LoD too easy. I played each adventure once with my friends and never lost once. We replayed a few of the adventures still never lost so we sadly have not gone back and played more.

I have not tried the LoD heroes in CR or WoA because those games were not designed to handle the out of phase powers of the new heroes. Sadly I feel that neither was LoD. After the third play, we stopped digging out the mini and placing the monsters until after the reactive hero/ally dice rolls. Only in the occasion that a monster lives to act do we actually place it.

As for the dungeon/cavern tile backs: we can set up as many thematic stacks as we want ahead of time. With different backs I can't hide specific tiles, or freely mix them. If they had the same back we could do ALL options, but with different backs we can only do SOME options. Why limit the choices? I strongly feel this was a huge mistake.

The imbalance I mention is that monsters do not get to act often. Most villains get to act once or twice before being slaughtered. In my runs in the game most heroes do not get hurt (very little) and others are averaging 1 or 2 HP the whole time. That difference of cake walk or almost dead directly relates to if your character allows a monster to activate or kills it after it shows up.



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Meh, why beat a dead horse?

Honestly though, LoD is a lot better than CR. It's at least playable...

-shnar
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Strictly speaking as someone who has ONLY played LoD (with very limited amounts of D&D) and got this game, because I AM a Drizzt fanboy...

I find the game challenging enough. I have played about 6 times and I have lost about half of those. When it starts to feel too easy, I make sure I am doing all of the steps. (During the Shimmergloom fight, we forgot to draw encounter cards).

I believe that as I play it more (and if I had played CR/WoA) it will get easier, but what game doesn't? I know that there are video games that I have played and beaten, with some challenge the first and sometimes the second time through. However by the time I get to the third or fourth I am breezing through it. I think someone in another thread made a similar comment.

For most of you, it sounds like you've gotten very good at the basic system. However the basic system is built for people who haven't played it. They can't make a game with the expectation that you've played and/or own a previous installation, unless its an expansion.

If you find it too easy, check out some house rules to make it more advanced/difficult.

I will say that, I believe that an official advanced system should be developed for advanced players, even if that advanced system is based on some unofficial advanced play...
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LoD is the most complex of the three. Stance management is new, acting out of turn is new. Allies are basically new. Edges on the map new, so are villainous heroes, team adventures and competetive adventures.

The basic system has nothing to do with the challenge of this game. It is purely the heroes' ability and the dungeon's inability.

Funny you should mention getting good at games and their challenge. Aside from a few hellish NES games CR is one of the only games that doesn't get easier. Faster, yes.. Easier, no. The success rate was 60/40 ish when got it and it's still 60/40 ish.
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virferrorum wrote:
The basic system has nothing to do with the challenge of this game. It is purely the heroes' ability and the dungeon's inability.

Funny you should mention getting good at games and their challenge. Aside from a few hellish NES games CR is one of the only games that doesn't get easier. Faster, yes.. Easier, no. The success rate was 60/40 ish when got it and it's still 60/40 ish.

Yup, CR is a great game.

Wizards correctly expected LoD to attract a lot of new gamers so the game certainly shouldn't be too difficult which coincided nicely with the fact that Drizzt & Co are uber heroes.

Like you said, there were also plenty of new features in LoD for seasoned players so imo, Wizards did a great job of balancing the game for old and new players. As an experienced player, I'm excited at all the new goodies that this game has added to the system. Yet for newbies, the game has also been very accessible, goin by the feedback in these forums.
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chromaticdragon wrote:
virferrorum wrote:
The basic system has nothing to do with the challenge of this game. It is purely the heroes' ability and the dungeon's inability.

Funny you should mention getting good at games and their challenge. Aside from a few hellish NES games CR is one of the only games that doesn't get easier. Faster, yes.. Easier, no. The success rate was 60/40 ish when got it and it's still 60/40 ish.

Yup, CR is a great game.

Wizards correctly expected LoD to attract a lot of new gamers so the game certainly shouldn't be too difficult which coincided nicely with the fact that Drizzt & Co are uber heroes.

Like you said, there were also plenty of new features in LoD for seasoned players so imo, Wizards did a great job of balancing the game for old and new players. As an experienced player, I'm excited at all the new goodies that this game has added to the system. Yet for newbies, the game has also been very accessible, goin by the feedback in these forums.


yep, LoD is good for bginner like me,its a lot less fiddly than FFG gGears of war (which is still a great game for me), playing LoD reminds me of playing the old computer game Diablo.. a light dungeon romp that satisfy my fantasy craving and imagination in short amount of time..

though later on i will want to implement those variants on bgg to add more spice..

as it is i use this game to introduce new ppl to boardgaming.. Gears of war is too much for beginner or newbie
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Honestly if I had more time on my hands I'd be working harder at some kind of LoD/Ashardalon hybrid. I'd love to play a game where a Kobold Dragonshield could summon a Feral Troll.
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SlebRittie wrote:
Honestly if I had more time on my hands I'd be working harder at some kind of LoD/Ashardalon hybrid. I'd love to play a game where a Kobold Dragonshield could summon a Feral Troll.

Chad, quick solution - swap out the Water Elementals with the Duergar Guards. Your games of LoD become more thematic (Duergar are native to the underdark) and you get your summoned Trolls.
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chromaticdragon wrote:
SlebRittie wrote:
Honestly if I had more time on my hands I'd be working harder at some kind of LoD/Ashardalon hybrid. I'd love to play a game where a Kobold Dragonshield could summon a Feral Troll.

Chad, quick solution - swap out the Water Elementals with the Duergar Guards. Your games of LoD become more thematic (Duergar are native to the underdark) and you get your summoned Trolls.


this is true , especially in mitral hall scenario
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shnar wrote:
Meh, why beat a dead horse?

-shnar


are you sure its dead ?? *continue beating horse*
 
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