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Subject: Looking for Precision Dice (d6) rss

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Mage Alexis
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I regularly play with an individual who complains about the fairness of dice rolls-claiming that the dice are imbalanced, that certain numbers come up too often, etc. Since this individual sired my significant other I play with him regularly, and will likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Due to that, I want to eliminate complaints about the quality of the dice.

To this end I would love to be able to gift a set of 'precision' dice that could guarantee that they were random and balanced. Since we're talking about boardgame use, casino dice don't seem to be a great idea (I could be wrong) and rounded (or backgammon) dice seem to be the better choice.

This site was one of the better ones I found during my brief search:
http://www.zontikgames.com/accessories/backgammon-precision-...

Is this the best one can find for precision rounded dice? Also, any idea if they come with a certificate or anything of the sort?

Any comments or ideas are welcome...
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David van Damme
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If they complain now they will keep complaining even with kryptonite laser cut as used by NASA dice. Play games that don't use dice.
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Mage Alexis
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DavidvD wrote:
If they complain now they will keep complaining even with kryptonite laser cut as used by NASA dice. Play games that don't use dice.


Perhaps, but I'm willing to try and appease him with accurate dice first. This individual is actually likely to feel that gameplay is improved when playing with accurate dice, regardless of any change in gameplay or not.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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I don't think precision dice will do the job. There's something about dice that some people just don't like.



How about a deck of cards instead?

Take a basic poker set and remove everything but the 1-6 cards.
Shuffle them, and set about half of them aside.

Play with the remaining cards. When they run out, reshuffle them with the cards you set aside. Set aside half of them, and continue playing.

Most of the randomness of dice but without the, you know, dice.
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Joe S
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You may have fun reading about the evils of rounded corners at this guy's website:

http://www.gamescience.com/uniqueindividualdice

Lou Zocchi is a sorta evangelist of dice.

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Mage Alexis
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lordrahvin wrote:

I don't think precision dice will do the job. There's something about dice that some people just don't like.



How about a deck of cards instead?

Take a basic poker set and remove everything but the 1-6 cards.
Shuffle them, and set about half of them aside.

Play with the remaining cards. When they run out, reshuffle them with the cards you set aside. Set aside half of them, and continue playing.

Most of the randomness of dice but without the, you know, dice.


I've done that a couple times. Some games also have cards that can be used in lieu of dice (Catan). Sadly, he dislikes cards and likes rolling dice as it provides a better feeling and more interaction (his words, paraphrased). Yes, he knows that the cards guarantee an even distribution (or semi even, depending on how you stack the deck), but he doesn't like them.

I realize that I'm trying to appease someone beyond what I'd normally consider reasonable. Since he's my girlfriend's dad though, I'm really trying to go above and beyond...

Thanks for the input though.
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Brook Gentlestream
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In that case, consider that the area you are rolling on could be just as important, or more so. Might want to make sure you have a nice looking dice bowl.




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Tom
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My suggestion: Real casino dice.
http://www.midwestgamesupply.com/dice.htm


Other dice do have statistical inaccuracies but they are so slight that unless they are trick dice, the odds are not that great, certainly very unlikely they are rolling 1's more than 6's in a consistent basis. The other issue you can remind him is that if both of you use the same pair of dice then both of you have the same chance for "bad roles".

I can empathize...I am notorious for bad rolling. My friends and my league opponents frequently say "dude you roll terribly." I have just learned to deal with the good and the bad rolls. I still win more games than I loose in my tabletop miniatures league so even when I have a string of bad luck, I also have strings of good rolls and everything seems to eventually even out.
 
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Mage Alexis
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ravager wrote:
You may have fun reading about the evils of rounded corners at this guy's website:

http://www.gamescience.com/uniqueindividualdice

Lou Zocchi is a sorta evangelist of dice.



Those were some interesting and informative videos.

That said, when he talks about casino dice he mentions that they are machined to within 1/5000 of an inch and better than his are since they are machined, and not cast. My guess (and this is just a guess) is that the precision backgammon dice are also machined, since they make claims of 3/10000 of an inch (slightly more than gambling requirements allow, but still excellent). Obviously, I have no way of measuring anything in that range, but I'd venture that they probably aren't outright lying on their webpage.

Still, excellent videos and great explanations for why some dice don't look or feel similar.

lordrahvin wrote:
In that case, consider that the area you are rolling on could be just as important, or more so. Might want to make sure you have a nice looking dice bowl.






I've considered that. My biggest issue is that most often dice rolls are performed in front of each person, since there's a board or something covering a large part of the table. Does one hand the dice bowl to the next person when it's their turn? Have multiple bowls? I'm still wondering about logistics.

johnnyspys wrote:
My suggestion: Real casino dice.
http://www.midwestgamesupply.com/dice.htm


Other dice do have statistical inaccuracies but they are so slight that unless they are trick dice, the odds are not that great, certainly very unlikely they are rolling 1's more than 6's in a consistent basis. The other issue you can remind him is that if both of you use the same pair of dice then both of you have the same chance for "bad roles".

I can empathize...I am notorious for bad rolling. My friends and my league opponents frequently say "dude you roll terribly." I have just learned to deal with the good and the bad rolls. I still win more games than I loose in my tabletop miniatures league so even when I have a string of bad luck, I also have strings of good rolls and everything seems to eventually even out.


Casino dice are definitely an option still. How well do they work when you can't throw them though? (I have no experience with them.)
 
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Nick King
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For rounded corner dice, precision backgammon is the best you can get. I am not familiar with this particular company, but it looks legit. Their dice are said to be 3/10000 tolerance, and I believe casino dice are generally 5/10000, but I'm not positive.

I doubt you'll get any type of certificate, but your gift is a nice gesture. I agree with other posters, that the rolling surface can often sway the rollers feelings toward dice as well, and dice trays have a nice feel, in much the same way the rounded corners have a nice 'feel' to them.

casino dice carry a sort of 'officialness' to them, depending on how the person using them views casinos. I was surprised to see how many people don't trust dice specifically because they came from a casino though. If you do buy casino dice, note that if they are souvenir dice, they aren't going to be as accurate as a true die, because they will have been used and abused enough by the casino to deem unworthy for their tables. You can buy dice bars though that are unused, and usually come 6 to a pack or so.

Because d6s have such a large surface area per face, it would be very unlikely to have enough test rolls to tell the difference between a true die and an unfair die. With dice that are more 'round' like d20s its more likely to get oblong shaped dice, and see wildly variant results.

Good luck in changing your father inlaw's mind though. :)
magealexis wrote:
I regularly play with an individual who complains about the fairness of dice rolls-claiming that the dice are imbalanced, that certain numbers come up too often, etc. Since this individual sired my significant other I play with him regularly, and will likely continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Due to that, I want to eliminate complaints about the quality of the dice.

To this end I would love to be able to gift a set of 'precision' dice that could guarantee that they were random and balanced. Since we're talking about boardgame use, casino dice don't seem to be a great idea (I could be wrong) and rounded (or backgammon) dice seem to be the better choice.

This site was one of the better ones I found during my brief search:
http://www.zontikgames.com/accessories/backgammon-precision-...

Is this the best one can find for precision rounded dice? Also, any idea if they come with a certificate or anything of the sort?

Any comments or ideas are welcome...
 
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Nomadic Gamer
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Use lotsa dice. Enough to make the 'bad' rolls even out.
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Tom
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I agree there are a lot of bunk casino dice that are sold on the cheap with imperfections. However, you can buy real casino dice that would pass for a casino but they are not cheap.

I think some people dislike Casino dice because they don't roll the same...the square edges make the dice appear to roll less. I like casino dice but I also like Chessex dice and I buy the bigger ones from con's like Gen Con. I have given up on the bad roll hex a while ago.

My suggestion for the casino dice is purely psychological. If a person believes they have precision dice they "might" be less likely to complain.

There is another suggestion. Buy him trick dice that frequently roll 5 and 6's and let him win more often. whistle
 
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Does he impart some of the unfairness to the rolling by players? If so, you might want to consider a dice tower.

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Choose some dice you like the look of, then do a Pearson's chi-squared test (χ2) to see if the dice are fair. The test tells you the chance of error, and there are online calculators. Dump any dice that are genuinely biased, play on!

Good, simple explanation from Penn State.

Online χ2 calculator at GraphPad

NB: You do need lots of rolls for each die - the more you roll, the more accurate the test. If you have children who can be relied on to do it conscientiously, and who are easily bribed, you have no problem. cool
 
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Virre Linwendil Annergård
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magealexis wrote:

I've considered that. My biggest issue is that most often dice rolls are performed in front of each person, since there's a board or something covering a large part of the table. Does one hand the dice bowl to the next person when it's their turn? Have multiple bowls? I'm still wondering about logistics.


Both are possible, we mostly have one each, or two share one. Depending on game and how many the guy that umm, makes his own brings. But they are nice and minamalise conflict.

(I love dice, I hate dice based conflict, I can understand you.

And of course dice HATES ME but thats irrelevant.)
 
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