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The Battle for Normandy» Forums » General

Subject: I have bone to pick with CSW wargamers rss

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Tom Stearns
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I went over to CSW forum for BfN to try and get some additional insight into the game. What I found was an arguement between 3 or 4 BfN regulars (for lack of a better word) and Dan Holte the game designer. The arguement was over whether the rules state that a flipped battalion can overstack in a hex with a breakdown company in order to combine. The key word here is overstack. The regulars cited rules and the fact they have been playing this way for years as proof that the above situation is allowed. The designer of the game clearly stated that their interpretation of the rule was wrong and it is clear that overstacking prior to recombining is not allowed.

Unbelieveably these guys were telling the designer that because they had always played it the way they had that they were going to ignore what he was saying. Others were saying they weren't going to play the game anymore. Others were saying they hadn't played it yet and now they weren't going to because the rules aren't perfect. I was left thinking two things.

1. These guys can;t read because I read the same rules they did and I did not interpret the rule the way they did. I read the rule to read as the designer stated it read. Also, it seems that they interpreted the rule the way they wanted to for their convenience instead of interpreting it the way it was meant to be played. If the rule is played the way they choose to understand it, it is easier to recombine units right on the front line in strong defensive positions instead of having to pull them off the line to recombine.

2. The arrogance they demonstrated in their tone and juevenile statements (If you don;t say I'm right I'm gonna take my ball and go home) was initially shocking. Then I got to thinking about other CSW forums I've been on and many of the same cast of characters are disparging the game and or the designer. I realize now that I don;t like CSW because of the arrogance of the war gamers there. Good freaking grief guys, for all the time you spend argueing over a rule you could be playing a game. Play the game according to the rules as written. If you don't like them, then play the game the way you "interpret" the rules. Does it really matter that much? Does it matter so much that you need to make statements about putting the game away or not even trying it? Talk about over reaction. Someone asked the designer a rules question, he answers it and you guys jump him and rudely tell him he's wrong. To top it off the guy is active service military serving in harms way. It makes me angry just typing this to think of the gaul of these guys.

For those of you thinking, "Geez Tom why don;t you post this on CSW?"
Well I have tried multiple times to get my old account password reset without a response from the CSW moderator. I have tried to open new account with different email address, again no response. So I posted it here.

Dan, if you have read this or read this far down the post, thank you for a tremendous design on a captivating piece of our history. This is IMHO the definitive game on the Normandy Campaign. Looking forward to the expansion and Bf Sicily. Hope you're able to ignore those rude fellas on CSW.
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John Clocherty
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Wow. Telling the game designer that he's wrong. An interesting approach.

I think you are spot on in your views.

J
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Greg Blanchett
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I'm afraid there are a few wargamers like that. It is not confined to CSW either...

Best choice is just to find your own group and try to ignore idiots like that. Deal with like-minded individuals and the designer... everything should be fine.
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Kevin Canada
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I used to like CSW, but John Kranz and his "board" are extremely arbitrary in their dealing with their site users. My account was deleted because one of the "board" whined that my "handle" wasn't valid. No query from John to see what was going on, no bother to check if I was, indeed, who I claimed, nothing. Just *delete*. Almost 10 years of bookmarked posts, gone, When I asked why he would do such a thing, John simply said "I'm too busy to check into your status", and that pseudonyms were his "hotbutton" issue. Never mind that I'd been a fairly good CSW "citizen" for close on 10 years (although I confess I had my moments when I was less that stellar). John offered to "allow" me to create a new account, but no "oops" or "sorry" was ever offered. I declined to come bad, citing his attitude and that of his toadies.

FWIW, I'm finding BGG a much different experience, less hostile. I'm glad of that.
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Harald Torvatn
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jockulus wrote:
Wow. Telling the game designer that he's wrong. An interesting approach.

I think you are spot on in your views.

J


But game designers are sometimes wrong. Probably not wrong about how their rules are intended to work, but somtimes they are wrong about what the rules actually say.

When a game designer claim the rules say what he intends them to say, but they really do not, it can get ugly.

I do not know whether this is the case in Battle for Normany, but I have certainly seen game designers claim the rules means something else than what they actually say.
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Tom Stearns
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Harald, I don't disagree with you that designers can be wrong. Most designers I have dealt with have been open to constructive criticism. It gives them an opposrtunity to improve the game, hence the living rules set. What irked me so much was the arrogance, childishness, and angst which the "users" were demonstrating during the discussion. As I said I recognize the names of several of these guys from other game forums where they use the same approach.

I finally got my new password and now am debating whether to post over there or not. Let it go and move on as some have suggested or stir the hornets nest?
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Jens Kaufmann
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Quote:
FWIW, I'm finding BGG a much different experience, less hostile. I'm glad of that.


Less hostile? whistle
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Arnold Daly
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gohrns wrote:
Harald, I don't disagree with you that designers can be wrong. Most designers I have dealt with have been open to constructive criticism. It gives them an opposrtunity to improve the game, hence the living rules set. What irked me so much was the arrogance, childishness, and angst which the "users" were demonstrating during the discussion. As I said I recognize the names of several of these guys from other game forums where they use the same approach.

I finally got my new password and now am debating whether to post over there or not. Let it go and move on as some have suggested or stir the hornets nest?



Tom I say stir the nest :D.
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Tom Stearns
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Hey there Arnold,

Were you referring to me posting on CSW, or was that a round-about way to ask me to play a game of April's Harvest: The Battle of Shiloh, April 6 & 7, 1862?
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Rusty Coleman
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They do get pretty particular over there. The forum exists so that folks can have those very discussions (as here) and with the designer, no less, there to explain the rules. Dan did make a great game. Like any game though, rules are not always totally clear and it leads to the inevitable misinterpretation. In my opinion, you buy the game, you play it your own way. There isn't anythihng to stop you. Write your own rulebook if you like. In the end, the idea is to have fun, not have another war over rules. I prefer to play by the rules as closely as I can but when there are 30+ pages of rules, it isn't easy to recall each and every minute detail and situation. Imagine how difficult it must be to write the rules!
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Arnold Daly
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No Tom I think you need to stir the nest on the CSW forums devil
 
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Pone McPoneface
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I tried CSW a year or two ago and didn't care for all the rude people I came across. Logged out and walked away and haven't looked back since.
 
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