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Subject: Obstructed Defense Approach = a -1 penalty to attacks? rss

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Chris Buhl
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Hi,

If infantry is manning a defense approach, which has an obstruction, are there two negative modifiers against attacking infantry, -1 for infantry attacking a manned approach, and -1 for any unit attacking an obstructed approach? Or does the obstruction simply keep cavalry at bay? In the rules on page 2 the top example is said to have an infantry penalty and an obstruction penalty, but in the attack section it only says:

"If there is a penalty in the defense
approach that matches the type of the
attack leading units and the defending
pieces are blocking the defense
approach, subtract one."

So in a rare moment of clarity, I realize I am confused.
 
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Justus Pendleton
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fatgreta wrote:
If infantry is manning a defense approach, which has an obstruction, are there two negative modifiers against attacking infantry, -1 for infantry attacking a manned approach, and -1 for any unit attacking an obstructed approach?


Why do you think any unit get a -1 penalty for attacking obstructed approaches?

The quote you provide in the attack section says "that matches the type of the attack leading units"....
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Chris Montgomery
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fatgreta wrote:
If infantry is manning a defense approach, which has an obstruction, are there two negative modifiers against attacking infantry, -1 for infantry attacking a manned approach, and -1 for any unit attacking an obstructed approach?


Hi, fatgreta! I'm going from memory here, and I don't have my rules. I am pretty sure my answers are correct . . . but if not, I am sure another generous geek will point out my errors, and if so, I will correct my post.

OBSTRUCTIONS

Obstructions do NOT add additional -1 modifiers. Obstructions prohibit certain kinds of units from LEADING attacks and LEADING defenses. Most notably, cavalry cannot LEAD an attack or defense, counter-attack across an obstructed approach AT ANY TIME, whether the defenders are in the reserve or in the approach. Cavalry can still participate in the battle as part of the attacking or defending pieces (which helps to break tied results due to number of units), but they can't LEAD an attack or defense across an obstructed approach. I also don't think that cavalry can counter-attack across an obstructed approach.

PENALTIES

As for PENALTIES, these ONLY APPLY if there are units IN THE APPROACH. If the defenders are in reserve, then the penalties do not apply.

This is the functional result of the rules: if there are ANY defenders in the attack approach, and if infantry units are LEADING in the attack, you automatically subtract one from the initial result regardless of whether a penalty is shown or not - basically, treat EVERY approach as if it has 1 infantry penalty that is not shown on the map. Approaches that have an infantry symbol subtract TWO from the initial result.

If artillery pieces are leading an attack, artillery penalties are applied only if the defenders are blocking the approach and then only subtract the penalty shown.

If cavlary pieces are leading an attack, cavalry penalties are applied only if the defenders are blocking the approach and then only subtract the penalty shown.

Can someone provide the rules quotes? I don't have my rules with me right now, but I am pretty sure these answers are correct.
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Chris Montgomery
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Found the quotes:

Obstructions:

See page 5, top right: "Cavalry units cannot lead an attack, lead a defense, or counter-attack if the defense approach is obstructed."

Penalties:

Under initial result, p. 6: "If the attack leading units are infantry and the defenders are blocking the attack approach, subtract 1." This is the automatic -1 penalty for infantry that is on every approach in the game.

Under initial result, p. 6, immediately below the above quote: "If there is a penalty in the defense approach that matches the type of the attack leading units and the defending pieces are blocking the defense approach, subtract one." This is the subtraction for physical symbols on the map.

Thus, infantry always subtract -1 if there are defenders in any approach (the first case), and subtract -2 if there is an infantry symbol (the first case and second case together).

Likewise, cavalry and artillery only subtract physical depictions of penalties on the map.

So you treat all approaches as having an invisible -1 infantry penalty in addition to any penalties actually shown. Just remember: only apply penalties if the defender is actually in the approach!
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Scipio O.
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The obstruction primarily limits cavalry from attacking into towns, regardless of whether defenders actually occupy the approach to the town locale.

It does not create any additional -1 penalty against a unit defending an obstructed approach.
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Claudio
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Scipio Oaklandus wrote:
The obstruction primarily limits cavalry from attacking into towns, regardless of whether defenders actually occupy the approach to the town locale.

It does not create any additional -1 penalty against a unit defending an obstructed approach.


And, secondarily, it prevents a guard attack when the attack approach is obstructed.
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Chris Buhl
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hoostus wrote:
fatgreta wrote:
If infantry is manning a defense approach, which has an obstruction, are there two negative modifiers against attacking infantry, -1 for infantry attacking a manned approach, and -1 for any unit attacking an obstructed approach?


Why do you think any unit get a -1 penalty for attacking obstructed approaches?

The quote you provide in the attack section says "that matches the type of the attack leading units"....


Because there's a place in the rules, describing locales, that refers to an obstruction as "also an obstruction penalty." But I understand now.
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cc the calm
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I think Chris is refering to the explanation following the example on page 2 right column.

"The top approach has penalties for infantry and artillery attacks into the locale, as well as an obstructed penalty."



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Chris Buhl
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cmdrc wrote:
I think Chris is refering to the explanation following the example on page 2 right column.

"The top approach has penalties for infantry and artillery attacks into the locale, as well as an obstructed penalty."





Exactamente (made up word)! Although it would have saved my bacon in a game I'm playing, I'm glad that's not a rule. Otherwise there would be virtually no way to dislodge a single two step infantry from a town approach, as far as I can see (math not being my strong suit).

Thanks for all the replies
 
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Garry Haggerty
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fatgreta wrote:
....I'm glad that's not a rule. Otherwise there would be virtually no way to dislodge a single two step infantry from a town approach, as far as I can see (math not being my strong suit).


Generally, it would take three turns of attacks to dislodge instead of two (assuming the 2-infantry isn't reinforced and the attacker doesn't make a Guard attack on the second turn).
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Rachel Simmons
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G Haggerty wrote:
fatgreta wrote:
....I'm glad that's not a rule. Otherwise there would be virtually no way to dislodge a single two step infantry from a town approach, as far as I can see (math not being my strong suit).


Generally, it would take three turns of attacks to dislodge instead of two (assuming the 2-infantry isn't reinforced and the attacker doesn't make a Guard attack on the second turn).


A 2-strength infantry can be defeated by a guard attack in one turn. (The attack strength is 3-1=2 vs. the defense strength of 2-1=1.) Otherwise, it takes at least two turns to take the town.
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Chris Buhl
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bowen wrote:
G Haggerty wrote:
fatgreta wrote:
....I'm glad that's not a rule. Otherwise there would be virtually no way to dislodge a single two step infantry from a town approach, as far as I can see (math not being my strong suit).


Generally, it would take three turns of attacks to dislodge instead of two (assuming the 2-infantry isn't reinforced and the attacker doesn't make a Guard attack on the second turn).


A 2-strength infantry can be defeated by a guard attack in one turn. (The attack strength is 3-1=2 vs. the defense strength of 2-1=1.) Otherwise, it takes at least two turns to take the town.


Right, I meant that if the obstruction created an additional penalty,then there would be no way to do it (on one attack).

I hope your shoulder's healing up. If you need some manual labor to help pack up and ship games, I'll work cheap...
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LautreSault
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fatgreta wrote:
Exactamente (made up word)!

Not really. "Exactamente" is a portuguese word that means "Exactly"!!!
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Chris Buhl
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Lautresault wrote:
fatgreta wrote:
Exactamente (made up word)!

Not really. "Exactamente" is a portuguese word that means "Exactly"!!!


Isn't the Spanish word for "exactly" exactly the same as the Portuguese word?
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LautreSault
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Just checked. It´s also the same word in spanish.
(As many other words)
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