Rex Gator
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I had a situation come up in our game tonight. I was playing Germans my opponent Americans. My German Soldier was near the cut between two tiles. American soldier had two moves to use. He used his first move was to an adjacent tile so he could then move into Combat Contact outside the shooting arc of my German Soldier. However by moving into contact in this way he could not fit all of his soldier base into the tile where my German soldier was positioned.

The Walk section of the Move Action includes the statement that:

"A Soldier must end its move fully inside of a square or landmark. At the end of the turn all Soldiers that are on cut lines of squares or landmarks are moved clear of the line by the
opponent."

This leads to two questions:

1. Can a soldier move into Combat Contact with an enemy soldier if he will NOT be able to end his move fully inside the square or landmark containing the enemy soldier?

2. Assuming that a soldier can make the move above and assuming that the fight does not resolve before the end of the turn, can the opposing player move the enemy soldier out of Combat Contact in order to satisfy the condition that soldiers cannot be on cut lines?

 
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Jerry Tresman
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I had the exact same situation the enemy was less than half an inch from the tile edge but easily within combat contact, according to the rules it was if he had a force field , we played that the soldier could move into combat , otherwise this would allow for a very game strategy.
 
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Allen Barton
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Jerry - would agree with you. Otherwise everyone would be moving 1/2 inch from edges and using it as "force field." I would say after the combat has been resolved and if a figure is still on the line, then it would be moved. Please no cheese
 
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Jeff Billings
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I need to add that exclusion to the next revision of the rules. When you are in Combat Contact you cannot move (except to face).

As for the Modifiers used if someone takes a SHOOT action against the soldiers on the lines they should use the square that has the majority of the Dog Tag as the location of the soldier that is targeted.

Good question.
 
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Jeff Billings
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shakeshake

No Forcefields...

goo
 
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Jerry Tresman
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ajbartman wrote:
Jerry - would agree with you. Otherwise everyone would be moving 1/2 inch from edges and using it as "force field." I would say after the combat has been resolved and if a figure is still on the line, then it would be moved. Please no cheese


SUGGESTION

After each CC in the End Phase the survivors should be moved by the player with initiative, a minimum distance so that they all comply with placement rules, even if two combatants end up adjacent to a tile edge but on different tiles.
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Jeff Billings wrote:
I need to add that exclusion to the next revision of the rules. When you are in Combat Contact you cannot move (except to face).

As for the Modifiers used if someone takes a SHOOT action against the soldiers on the lines they should use the square that has the majority of the Dog Tag as the location of the soldier that is targeted.

Good question.


Just to be clear Jeff. You are going to edit the rules to specifically state that once you are in contact with one or more enemy soldiers, your soldier can only be moved for facing change purposes.

One of the things I have been wrestling with is the terminology surrounding Fight. Combact Contact seems to have several uses within the rules. The actual definition of Combat Contact is when a soldier is in base to base contact with an enemy through the shooting arc of the soldier. This limitation suggests that a soldier who is in base to base contact with an enemy through any portion of his base outside his shooting arc is NOT in Combat Contact. This makes perfect sense. The rules then go on to say that a Soldier in Combat Contact may only change facing with a MOVE action. This limitation would seem to suggest that soldiers NOT in Combat Contact (such as the case when the soldier was hit from his "blindside") could not use a move action to change facing.

It is abundantly clear on the forum posts that everyone is in fact playing that any soldier in base to base contact with an enemy soldier can change facing with a subsequent MOVE action.

It also seems that people are using Combat Contact to describe the overall situation when two or more enemy soldiers are in base to base contact. I think we might need to come up with some other terminology to reflect the different states that might exist in these situations. May I suggest:

Fight be used to describe the general situation when two or more enemy soldiers are in base to contact regardless of facing.

Combat Contact be used to narrowly define the situation when a friendly soldier has base to base contact with an enemy soldier through the friendly soldier's shooting arc.

Surprise Contact to reflect when a frienly soldier is in base to base contact with an enemy soldier outside of the friendly soldier's shooting arc.

Then you could edit the rule on Action use to say the only action any soldier can use during fight is to change facing in a subsequent MOVE order.


Just wanted to throw that out there.
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Allen Barton
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Good discussion. I would say that it is actually less limiting.

Quote:
This limitation would seem to suggest that soldiers NOT in Combat Contact (such as the case when the soldier was hit from his "blindside") could not use a move action to change facing.


This actually allows me to move will in contact. I can always move with a "MOVE" action.
 
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rexgator wrote:

It also seems that people are using Combat Contact to describe the overall situation when two or more enemy soldiers are in base to base contact. I think we might need to come up with some other terminology to reflect the different states that might exist in these situations.

I guess I want to understand what the designers really had in mind if a soldier establishes Combat Contact outside the enemy soldier's shooting arc, since they go out of their way to describe Combat Contact in that fashion explicitly.

Here's why: technically, the enemy soldier is not in Combat Contact with the soldier that initiated the contact. And, since only soldiers that are in Combat Contact are allowed to draw cards during a fight(pg11), the enemy soldier wouldn't draw any cards when the fight gets resolved. A very lopsided fight, but it's what I might expect in a real situation where a soldier is able to attack an enemy from behind. Assuming he survived that initial attack, the enemy soldier could then spin around to face his adversary (and then draw cards) the next time he can legally execute a move action.

Tim
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rexgator wrote:
I think we might need to come up with some other terminology to reflect the different states that might exist in these situations. May I suggest:

Surprise Contact to reflect when a frienly soldier is in base to base contact with an enemy soldier outside of the friendly soldier's shooting arc.
I prefer the term Ambush! whistle
 
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Someone tried to move beyond one of my soldiers tonight on a line that passed through to another of my soldiers that was worth more victory points. (I was intentionally screening this higher point soldier with one worth less VPs.)

We have been playing that a soldier may pass through the base of a friendly soldier as long as such a move didn't end on top of another friendly soldier's base, but I didn't allow the particular movement described above when it passed over an enemy soldier's base.

I reasoned that combat contact MUST occur immediately whenever possible. Is this a correct interpretation?
 
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R M Chair General wrote:

I reasoned that combat contact MUST occur immediately whenever possible. Is this a correct interpretation?

Yep.

Pg 11 of the rulebook: "Soldiers must Fight at the conclusion of each Action (card) if they are in Combat Contact."

On the other hand, it's conceivable that your opponent could walk around the guy screening your high VP soldier.

Pg 12: (italics mine) "All moves to make contact with an enemy Soldier must be made in a straight line, if possible."

Tim
 
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Jerry Tresman
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The rules have been clarified / ammended.

1. As soon as you make contact with an enemy soldiers base (any part of it) you are in combat contact:-
Combat Contact

A Soldier that is in base to base contact with another Soldier, using the Shooting Arc of the Soldier’s base, is in Combat Contact. Soldiers in Combat Contact may only change facing if they play a MOVE action. No other actions are allowed while in Combat Contact. All moves to actually make contact with an enemy Soldier must be made in a straight line, if possible.

2. The final move action if multiple moves or only move action into combat contact must be in a straight line, to prevent a winding move and artificailly sneaking up on the enemies blindside.

3. soldiers in combat contact stay engaged until killed or all then enemy are killed.

4. Fights are resolved at the end of each Action Phase not each action card. So you may sneak up on an enemy in your move action but if he also has a move action he can turn and face before the fight is reolved.

5. Any survivors in combat will fight gain at the end of the next Phase their only permitted action being a move to face an enem
Sequence of play 6:-
At the end of each phase, Soldiers in Combat Contact with enemy Soldiers Fight (see Combat Contact Page 12 under the MOVE Action for an explanation
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Jerry Tresman
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R M Chair General wrote:
rexgator wrote:
I think we might need to come up with some other terminology to reflect the different states that might exist in these situations. May I suggest:

Surprise Contact to reflect when a frienly soldier is in base to base contact with an enemy soldier outside of the friendly soldier's shooting arc.
I prefer the term Ambush! whistle


Jeff has also clarified that Combat Contact may not involve hand to hand but firing at close range with SMG and pistols.
 
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Starman54 wrote:
The rules have been clarified / ammended.

1. As soon as you make contact with an enemy soldiers base (any part of it) you are in combat contact:-
Combat Contact

A Soldier that is in base to base contact with another Soldier, using the Shooting Arc of the Soldier’s base, is in Combat Contact. Soldiers in Combat Contact may only change facing if they play a MOVE action. No other actions are allowed while in Combat Contact. All moves to actually make contact with an enemy Soldier must be made in a straight line, if possible.

2. The final move action if multiple moves or only move action into combat contact must be in a straight line, to prevent a winding move and artificailly sneaking up on the enemies blindside.

3. soldiers in combat contact stay engaged until killed or all then enemy are killed.

4. Fights are resolved at the end of each Action Phase not each action card. So you may sneak up on an enemy in your move action but if he also has a move action he can turn and face before the fight is reolved.

5. Any survivors in combat will fight gain at the end of the next Phase their only permitted action being a move to face an enem
Sequence of play 6:-
At the end of each phase, Soldiers in Combat Contact with enemy Soldiers Fight (see Combat Contact Page 12 under the MOVE Action for an explanation


Hey Jerry

I noticed you appear to be distinguishing combat contact from Combat Contact based on captializing the first letter of each word. I can see that convention to define the two uses of the same phrase but I do not see that convention spelled out in any version of the rules. Can you point me to a reference?

If that is Jeff's intent then i think the rest of your analysis is right on and we jsut nedd to get the rules cleaned up. I still think from a teaching/learning point of view the sublte distinction between capitalization may lead to confusion and would prefer two distinct terms but it is not critical.
 
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R M Chair General wrote:
rexgator wrote:
I think we might need to come up with some other terminology to reflect the different states that might exist in these situations. May I suggest:

Surprise Contact to reflect when a frienly soldier is in base to base contact with an enemy soldier outside of the friendly soldier's shooting arc.
I prefer the term Ambush! :whistle:


I actually wrote ambush first and then thought that the term might have been reerved for future rules mechanisms so I changed it.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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rexgator wrote:

Hey Jerry

I noticed you appear to be distinguishing combat contact from Combat Contact based on captializing the first letter of each word. I can see that convention to define the two uses of the same phrase but I do not see that convention spelled out in any version of the rules. Can you point me to a reference?

If that is Jeff's intent then i think the rest of your analysis is right on and we jsut nedd to get the rules cleaned up. I still think from a teaching/learning point of view the sublte distinction between capitalization may lead to confusion and would prefer two distinct terms but it is not critical.


Ignore capitalisation or non capitalisation.I was just inconsistent or my tablet auto corrected.

If any part of a base is touching an enemy base you are in Combat Contact. You only draw cards in a fight if at least one enemy is in your shooting arc.
 
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Jerry Tresman
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rexgator wrote:
R M Chair General wrote:
rexgator wrote:
I think we might need to come up with some other terminology to reflect the different states that might exist in these situations. May I suggest:

Surprise Contact to reflect when a frienly soldier is in base to base contact with an enemy soldier outside of the friendly soldier's shooting arc.
I prefer the term Ambush! whistle


I actually wrote ambush first and then thought that the term might have been reerved for future rules mechanisms so I changed it.


IMO it does not need a separate term as combat contact or Combat Contact basically means one or more enemy soldiers are in contact with one or more friendly soldiers.Those soldiers who have one or more enemies in their shooting arc draw cards in a fight at the end of each phase.
It is very unlikely you will back into an enemy so generally the moving player will sometimes be able to "blindside" the enemy, if he remains that way depends on what he can do before the phase end.

I feel this is reasonable as it should be difficult to sneak up on someone, it takes planning and can make you vulnerable. CC should not be the instrument of choice unless you have a sure thing, in WW2 combat most shooting was to suppress and allow for movement to flank and then use crossfire. Close assault was only used when there was not a better option available.
 
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Tim McCormley
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But this:
Starman54 wrote:
The rules have been clarified / ammended.

1. As soon as you make contact with an enemy soldiers base (any part of it) you are in combat contact:-


Contradicts this:

Starman54 wrote:
Combat Contact

A Soldier that is in base to base contact with another Soldier, using the Shooting Arc of the Soldier’s base, is in Combat Contact.

According to the rules just quoted, "Combat Contact" is a special form of base to base contact: the soldier's shooting arc has to be touching a part of the other soldiers base.

I'm sorry for being so anal, but I want to make sure I'm playing it as intended, since you only draw cards during a fight if your shooting arc is touching the base of another soldier: "Combat Contact" as defined by the rules.

It should be a pretty rare occurrence for a soldier to be in base to base contact without at least one soldier's shooting arc touching another base, but I can imagine it happening: a soldier charges into a group of enemy soldiers intending to eliminate a high value target is in "Combat Contact" with the high value target, but only in "simple" base to base contact with other soldiers in the group.

Tim
 
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Allen Barton
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I don't see an issue. Base-to-base contact = Combat Contact. Only those that make contact in their shooting arc draw cards. This could cause a case where no one draws cards until a "move" action and one soldier turns to face the other.
 
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Where Tim and I are hung up is the rules give a specific definition for Combat Contact that limits to situations where the enemy soldier is contacted through the shooting arc. I understand how most people seem to be playing it but for new players to the game this can cause needless confusion. I suspect that some of this might stem from the gaming background of different players. I think people with lots of miniatures gaming experience are use to ambiguity in rules and just sorting it out at the table. I have more experience with board games and in particular games with very precise wording such as Napoleon's Triumph and Combat Commander.
 
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ajbartman wrote:
I don't see an issue. Base-to-base contact = Combat Contact. Only those that make contact in their shooting arc draw cards. This could cause a case where no one draws cards until a "move" action and one soldier turns to face the other.

Sure. It's just that the game plays differently if you apply a literal definition of Combat Contact: enemy soldiers that are in base to base contact, but NOT within their shooting arcs, are free to do whatever they want during their turn. They don't have to fight each other and can play whatever action cards they choose.

Of course, as Rex points out, applying the rules literally is not necessarily a requirement for your group's enjoyment of the game.

I'm both a miniatures guy and a boardgaming guy, and I happen to like to play the rules as written, partly because I assume that the designers had good reasons for making the rules in the first place and partly because it avoids arguments, but mostly because I suck at making house rules.

Tim
 
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Let me try this a different way...

Here is the presicse definition of Combat Contact form the latest draft of the rules:

Quote:
Combat Contact
A Soldier that is in base to base contact with another Soldier, using the Shooting Arc of the Soldier’s base, is in Combat Contact. Soldiers in Combat Contact may only change facing if they play a MOVE action. No other actions are allowed while in Combat Contact. All moves to actually make contact with an enemy Soldier must be made in a straight line, if
possible.


Clearly within this definition Combat Contact does not "=" any base to base contact. The First problem with this definition is that it then makes it literally impossible for the soldier who gets "blindsided" to use a subsequent MOVE order to change facing since he is not in Combat Contact. The second problem is that if the soldier is not in "Combat Contact" then the restriction on taking no other actions does not apply and he is free to waltz away on his next action.

So the easy fix would simply be to delete the modifying clause "using the shooting arc of the Soldier's base," Voila problem solved, now base to base contact does = Combat Contact and everyone lived happily ever after...

Not so fast though my friends. Because if we make that modification then we are creating a conflict with this section of the rules (emphasis added):

Quote:

Fight
Soldiers must Fight at the conclusion of each Phase if they are in Combat Contact. To resolve the hand-to-hand combat, first CHECK INITIATIVE. Then set your hand of Action cards aside. For each Soldier in this specific Combat, and who has proper Combat Contact (see the next section), draw Action Cards equal to the Fight value on the Soldier cards – found in the MOVE box



so if we now are using a definition of Combat Contact=base to base contact then EVERY soldier is going to draw fight cards. This clearly contradicts the spirit and intent of the rules.

So we have a rules conflict that needs to be sorted out. I still think the answer is creating a general term for base to base contact that limits all soldiers to only facing changes if they have a move order and a narrower term that tells us who is allowed to draw cards in the base to base scenario.

 
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rexgator wrote:

So we have a rules conflict that needs to be sorted out. I still think the answer is creating a general term for base to base contact that limits all soldiers to only facing changes if they have a move order and a narrower term that tells us who is allowed to draw cards in the base to base scenario.

Maybe.

You could also remove the requirement that Combat Contact is necessary for a Fight. i.e. Any base to base contact initiates a Fight, and if there is no Combat Contact while Fighting, then the combatants would be stuck there until one of them initiates a MOVE action to orient their base so that their shooting arc faces their adversary. Then they can draw cards to fight.

It seems a little weird at first, but I could imagine that the soldiers are more or less grappling with each other until someone makes a move which gives them a distinct advantage in the fight.

Tim
 
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armor_11 wrote:


You could also remove the requirement that Combat Contact is necessary for a Fight. i.e. Any base to base contact initiates a Fight, and if there is no Combat Contact while Fighting, then the combatants would be stuck there until one of them initiates a MOVE action to orient their base so that their shooting arc faces their adversary. Then they can draw cards to fight.

It seems a little weird at first, but I could imagine that the soldiers are more or less grappling with each other until someone makes a move which gives them a distinct advantage in the fight.

Tim

That is what I was saying and has been indirectly backed up by Jeff.

The rules are ambiguous but the implication is clear.

Combat Contact means base contact, otherwise there would be no need for a restriction, on the only action allowed, being a turn to face.
If you think about it , IF this rule only applied to units in CC and this meant they had an enemy in their shooting arc, why have a restriction only allowing them to bring an enemy into it.

IMO Jeff intended the CC definition to apply to the first soldier making base contact and INITIATING Combat Contact. From then on it is all about adding forces and reaction, playing out each separate group of CC contacted soldiers in a fight at the end of each phase.

This has a number of cross references in the rules.


Jeff you do need to read this post and amend the glossary and rules to clarify your intentions and remove any doubt.

To play any other way is crazy
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