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Subject: Hunt Strategy rss

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Mark Ashton
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From another thread:
fubar awol wrote:
mvkhaos wrote:
fubar awol wrote:

Tell them to allocate 2 dice to the hunt on the first turn.


Apologies for thread-jacking here. Why do you say this? I would think (haven't played enough to say for sure) that the shadow player would rather not hunt on the first turn. I'd rather have a successful hunt when the fellowship is one or two movements away from Rivendell so I can drop a nazgul on their position.


It is a hijack: start another thread if you want to discuss hunt dice allocation.


So I don't know if fubar awol will see this, but my question for him still stands.

More generally, what sorts of strategies do Shadow players use in hunting the ring? It seems to me that it's critical to get the fellowship exposed in the open somewhere you can plant an army and a nazgul to get re-rolls.
 
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Nate
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I'm new to the game, but that's what I would guess, too.
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Pierce Ostrander
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mvkhaos wrote:
From another thread:

fubar awol wrote:
Tell them to allocate 2 dice to the hunt on the first turn.


So I don't know if fubar awol will see this, but my question for him still stands.


My recommendation was for a specific context: a new player who will not tolerate a long rules explanation. The purpose of the recommendation was to make sure a hunt roll happens on the first turn - and potentially a successful one so you can demo the tile draw part of the game.

mvkhaos wrote:
More generally, what sorts of strategies do Shadow players use in hunting the ring? It seems to me that it's critical to get the fellowship exposed in the open somewhere you can plant an army and a nazgul to get re-rolls.


The only way to get the FP "exposed in the open" is through a successful hunt followed by the successful pull of a reveal tile.

So, if you don't allocate dice in the first place (against a fellowship whose last known location is an FP stronghold), it is much less likely that you will ever be in the position to mob them with a Nazgul and an army.

The fellowship will happily move along until it can reveal in Lorien where can't slap him with searchers.

Your logic does not follow.
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Mark Ashton
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fubar awol wrote:
mvkhaos wrote:
From another thread:

fubar awol wrote:
Tell them to allocate 2 dice to the hunt on the first turn.


So I don't know if fubar awol will see this, but my question for him still stands.


My recommendation was for a specific context: a new player who will not tolerate a long rules explanation. The purpose of the recommendation was to make sure a hunt roll happens on the first turn - and potentially a successful one so you can demo the tile draw part of the game.

mvkhaos wrote:
More generally, what sorts of strategies do Shadow players use in hunting the ring? It seems to me that it's critical to get the fellowship exposed in the open somewhere you can plant an army and a nazgul to get re-rolls.


The only way to get the FP "exposed in the open" is through a successful hunt followed by the successful pull of a reveal tile.

So, if you don't allocate dice in the first place (against a fellowship whose last known location is an FP stronghold), it is much less likely that you will ever be in the position to mob them with a Nazgul and an army.

The fellowship will happily move along until it can reveal in Lorien where can't slap him with searchers.

Your logic does not follow.


I said "I would think (haven't played enough to say for sure) that the shadow player would rather not hunt on the first turn." Given this question, why do you think my strategy is to let the fellowship waltz to Lorien? I understand how corruption damage works, there's no need to be patronizing.

I see the point about a teaching game, but extra dice in the box don't guarantee a hunt roll -- they only do so if the fellowship moves. My thought is that the FP may be happy to stay safely hidden in Rivendell as long as the SP is devoting lots of dice to the hunt. This is, in fact, what happened in one of the two games I've played so far; every time I put two or more dice in the box, the FP player didn't move. When I played as FP, I stayed put whenever there were 3-4 dice in the hunt after rolling.

So what I'm looking for is general thoughts on how the shadow player can best balance the need to cause corruption while not scaring the fellowship into inaction and also retaining enough dice to execute an effective military strategy.

It seems to me that one good way to get be sure the fellowship starts moving, and needs to keep moving to find another haven, is to not hunt in the first turn.

EDIT: feeling a little prickly today, sorry.
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dave
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mvkhaos wrote:
So what I'm looking for is general thoughts on how the shadow player can best balance the need to cause corruption while not scaring the fellowship into inaction and also retaining enough dice to execute an effective military strategy.
I'm not quite following all of the interactions of this thread, but I'll give you my 2 cents on this point. In the 1st ed. base game and Expansion, I think the best strategy for the SP was essentially to ignore the FSP and focus on the awesome Shadow military machine. There really is no need to cause corruption when you are conquering middle earth in 6 or 7 turns which you can do if you don't mess with the FSP.

In fact, it is very hard to actually corrupt the FSP becuase they can simply stop moving and/or dig through the C deck for good event cards. Thus, strangely enough, the best way to corrupt them is to focus on the SP military which forces the FP to recklessly move the FSP and separate off the most companions it can for defense. Consequently I would recommend not placing any eyes in the hunt box--at least until it becomes clear that you cannot win militarily before the FSP can dunk and/or if you've got plenty of time to win militarily and you want to make sure the FSP can move 3-4 times unhindered (if you don't roll any eyes). Furthermore, if you have a elvin ring or lidless eye, then certainly don't place any eyes as you can always place one in an emergency.

Now with the 2nd ed. rules, this may change some, but (unfortunately) I'm thinking that it probably won't change that much.

Anyhow, my 2 cents.

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Kevin Wojtaszczyk
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Overall the primary strategies for the game are the FP ring dunk and the SP military victory.

For the most part (MG!), FP military victories or SP corruption victories are just secondary options and work only in certain games and are more point-counter point scenarios based on certain cards and hunt tile results as the game plays out. Like wins of opportunity that can happen in some games.

Finding and corrupting the FSP is 100% a random affair, you can't really go into a game with a clear corruption victory path. Too many times I've seen the FSP move safely or take just 1 non-reveal corruption point with 4 or more eyes in the hunt box...
 
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Paul Bauman
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fubar awol wrote:


Your logic does not follow.


To Mark's credit, this last part was kind of douchey...
 
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Will Fogg
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It seems to me that every turn the Fellowship doesnt move, is one turn gained for the shadow. So if I have 7 dice, put 4 in the hunt and the fellowship doesnt move, its not 4 dice lost, its the other 3 WON.

Even if the FP are doing lots of other things, mustering, etc with the rest of the dice, they really cant stand up to a prolongued fight with the shadow due to the mustering limits of the FP nations.So unless the FP is going for the military victory, and that's hard without the pressure of the ring.

The longer the game, the best for the shadow. If the fellowship doesnt move that is the best news I can get. I move closer to my objectives but they dont.
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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William_Fogg wrote:
Even if the FP are doing lots of other things, mustering, etc with the rest of the dice, they really cant stand up to a prolongued fight with the shadow due to the mustering limits of the FP nations.So unless the FP is going for the military victory, and that's hard without the pressure of the ring.


Well, sometimes the early Action dice come up in ways that make the FPMV a very viable option. Imagine this:

Turn 1
FP: 2 Musters, 1 Character, and 1 Army/Muster

Shadow: 3 EYEs in the Hunt, 2 Events, 1 Character, and 1 Muster

If I were the FP player I might use the Character to separate all Companions to Moria (from where they can spread across Middle Earth to activate FP Nations).

I would use the two Musters to bring one Nation towards War (most likely the Elves but could be another one if I hold some good Event cards.

The Army/Muster could be used on the Political track, or perhaps move some Armies I think will soon be at war (dependant on my Event cards).





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nico34fr nico34fr
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William_Fogg wrote:
It seems to me that every turn the Fellowship doesnt move, is one turn gained for the shadow.


I don't agree with you. Say SP have 7 dices and FP 4. SP put 4 eyes and 3 dice stays. First it will take ages for SP to get the dice of saruman and witch king whereas FP will get its dice at same pace as usual (even faster in fact as gandalf has more chances to be killed early)

because fights will take place in stronghold and FP has better combat card than SP you can count 2 SP hit points = 1 FP hit point
so with 4 dices against 3 each turn there is NO chance at all for SP to win the game under 20 turns. because even with same number of musters FP will become stronger each turn (to beat a tronghold with 10hps you must come with 3 armies to be certain to win)

and in 20 turns FP can move each turn once (4@6 chances to be catch each move) and stay like 10 turns in minas tirith to heal and still has plenty of time to climb mordor


best chance for SP to win is a balanced number of eyes (not too few to avoid a ring run but not too many to rush strongholds before they get reinforced)
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nico34fr nico34fr
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Veldrin wrote:
If I were the FP player I might use the Character to separate all Companions to Moria (from where they can spread across Middle Earth to activate FP Nations).

I would use the two Musters to bring one Nation towards War (most likely the Elves but could be another one if I hold some good Event cards.


and as FSP is without "meatshield" the ring dunk is not an option anymore

And you would loose military because SP would never put eyes in the box anymore and will have 9 dice to bring havoc to the FP lands (the ones you did not choose to put to war of course...)



it reminds me of a 6h game i had some weeks ago, the FP player separated at turn 1 and tried all game long to keep 4 points at same time
 
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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nico34fr wrote:
Veldrin wrote:
If I were the FP player I might use the Character to separate all Companions to Moria (from where they can spread across Middle Earth to activate FP Nations).

I would use the two Musters to bring one Nation towards War (most likely the Elves but could be another one if I hold some good Event cards.


and as FSP is without "meatshield" the ring dunk is not an option anymore

And you would loose military because SP would never put eyes in the box anymore and will have 9 dice to bring havoc to the FP lands (the ones you did not choose to put to war of course...)



it reminds me of a 6h game i had some weeks ago, the FP player separated at turn 1 and tried all game long to keep 4 points at same time


As I said it would also depend on the cards I hold.

Having perhaps "Fear! Fire! Foes!" or "Book of Mazarbul" I would have options to muster Elves, Gondor , and Dwarves from turn 2/3 with average dice.

Boromir and Strider to Minas Tirith.

Gabdalf to some Elven Stronghold or to Bree perhaps.

Some Comps to Rohan (with a Hobbit to activate).

It would all depend on the Action dice rolled but it is not as impossible as you make it sound!

FPMV is way more difficult than Ring Victory but it is in fact possible. Ask Magic Geek!


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nico34fr nico34fr
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I know his opinion and mine is that it is impossible, not 80/20 or 90/10 i think it is 100% impossible to win that way. The game will be very long but with a turtuling strategy shadow can't loose, no chance at all.
Of course if SP play offensive he has a chance to loose but if he plays defensive untill FP is without reinforcement i can't see how he can loose

in my opinion FPMV is only possible in an opportunist situation (a big army with gandalf near a lone stronghold + an empty stronghold conquiered without fight for exemple)
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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I agree, that if the Shadow is aware of the risks and play accordingly he can only loose if the Action dice "abandon" him, which they can do. But against a Shadow who tries to take some VPs at the same time it can work.

Against an experienced Shadow player I would never do a FPMV where I abandon the Fellowship.

See how we hijacked this thread!

 
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Kevin Wojtaszczyk
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Before Mordor, if the shadow has 3-4 eyes in the hunt box the FSP should be moving as much as possible, since the FSP can then get a lot closer to Mordor before the SP can get their armies mobilized since they are low on usable action dice.

Having 3-4 eyes in the hunt box before Mordor doesn't do anything for the SP except adjust hunt roll probabilities. It does not mean the FSP will be revealed or get more corruption because the hunt tile pull is the same as before. The FP has 25 corruption to give with 11 corruption+companions, not counting character card healing.

If you use Strider's hide on any die ability, even if the SP gets lucky to roll a successful hunt and draw a reveal tile, the FP can then use any die to hide and then continue to use C/W's to move the FSP.

The SP will be very worried if it's Turn 4 and the FSP is sitting in or next to Minas Tirth with 3-4 corruption while they have yet to put a stronghold under siege...
 
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Mark Ashton
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nico34fr wrote:
I know his opinion and mine is that it is impossible, not 80/20 or 90/10 i think it is 100% impossible to win that way. The game will be very long but with a turtuling strategy shadow can't loose, no chance at all.
Of course if SP play offensive he has a chance to loose but if he plays defensive untill FP is without reinforcement i can't see how he can loose

in my opinion FPMV is only possible in an opportunist situation (a big army with gandalf near a lone stronghold + an empty stronghold conquiered without fight for exemple)


Well, Veldrin's example is not entirely hypothetical. I kept playing offensively as SP and lost a FPMV.

Big mistakes I made: leaving Umbar open, playing aggressively and not trying to win a war of attrition.

Veldrin took full advantage of those mistakes and kicked my butt!
 
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Craig Rose
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nico34fr wrote:
and as FSP is without "meatshield" the ring dunk is not an option anymore

Not true. It is a very viable strategy to separate any remaining companions once the fellowship reaches Lorien. Declare there to heal corruption, and avoid moving the fellowship until corruption is back down to 2 or less. With golum leading the fellowship, only one "eye die" can be placed in the hunt pool and reveals only happen with an eye tile. No reveals means, character action dice move the fellowship more quickly because they are not spent hiding.

Depending on what's still in the hunt pool, it's not uncommon to make it to the Mordor track with 4 or fewer corruption.
 
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nico34fr nico34fr
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hi

I totally agree with you!

But the sentence you quoted was about a fellowship in rivendell (not Lorien it makes a big difference as it his half way to mordor)
If you decide to separate all comps turn 1 with FSP in rivendell getting to mordor is not a viable option anymore, that's what i meant.

I tried it 5 or 6 times playing solo some months ago (base + extension) and doing that force SP to turtle, muster Mr Hunty and spread nazguls all over the route.FP won only one time with 10 corruption and with extreme luck on tile draws
 
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Craig Rose
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nico34fr wrote:
hi

I totally agree with you!

But the sentence you quoted was about a fellowship in rivendell (not Lorien it makes a big difference as it his half way to mordor)
If you decide to separate all comps turn 1 with FSP in rivendell getting to mordor is not a viable option anymore, that's what i meant.

I tried it 5 or 6 times playing solo some months ago (base + extension) and doing that force SP to turtle, muster Mr Hunty and spread nazguls all over the route.FP won only one time with 10 corruption and with extreme luck on tile draws

Gotcha. thumbsup
 
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nico34fr nico34fr
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nico34fr wrote:
William_Fogg wrote:
It seems to me that every turn the Fellowship doesnt move, is one turn gained for the shadow.


I don't agree with you. Say SP have 7 dices and FP 4. SP put 4 eyes and 3 dice stays. First it will take ages for SP to get the dice of saruman and witch king whereas FP will get its dice at same pace as usual (even faster in fact as gandalf has more chances to be killed early)

because fights will take place in stronghold and FP has better combat card than SP you can count 2 SP hit points = 1 FP hit point
so with 4 dices against 3 each turn there is NO chance at all for SP to win the game under 20 turns. because even with same number of musters FP will become stronger each turn (to beat a tronghold with 10hps you must come with 3 armies to be certain to win)

and in 20 turns FP can move each turn once (4@6 chances to be catch each move) and stay like 10 turns in minas tirith to heal and still has plenty of time to climb mordor


best chance for SP to win is a balanced number of eyes (not too few to avoid a ring run but not too many to rush strongholds before they get reinforced)


i still think puting many dice in hunt box is not usefull to gain turns to conquier FP because the dice FP don't put on move are used to muster defense weheras dice put on eyes bye SP are not used to war

but i tried 5/6 solo games with corruption as a goal and it exists a good SP Hunt strategy.
4 dices is too much and does not allow SP to get enough musters (for saruman/WK) and C dice to put nazguls on the FSP road, but 3 dice + rerolls seems a good hunt strat. Each time i tried it the ring was corrupted, each time the FP separate a companion (even strider to get it crowned) it got corrupted way before getting close to dunk. I tried once to heal in Lorien but SP got too strong and would had won military.


I would like to test it with a real opponent but found noone yesterday on facebook. And now i won't be avail for some time.

Here is the best strat for SP hunt :
each turn: 3 eyes.
1st turn use a C die to put 3 nazguls like that: 1 near rivendel and 2 on the 2 common routes. Use M in that order : sauron to war, orthanc to war, WK if possible or saruman. Use army dice to move regulars on the FSP road and to move an army to attack minas tirith (the goal is to put a FP nation to war fast to muster WK and to conquier MT to avoid the heal of the FSP).
All the game long always use palantir to draw C cards and always attack with the WK army with a C card to draw another C card. Use C dice to play corruption cards or to put nazguls on the road.

You should always have 2 hunt rerolls, move armies/nazguls BEFORE the FSP move to be sure to have rerolls.


Of course if FP decide to separate all companion and to try a FPMV go FULL turtle strategy until FP has no reinforcement left. But don't forget to put an eye in hunt box and to keep nazguls on FSP to get a reroll in case it decides to move once in a while.
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Donald Walsh
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Wow, good stuff.

Foob's intitial comment about the OP's logic boils down to this, The OP says he wants to find the ringbearers one or 2 spaces from Rivendell, then the way to do that is to Hunt on turn 1. A successful hunt on the FP's first move will find them just outside Rivendell. They don't have the option of staying put. So why press the argument of not hunting which would allow the fellowship a 2-3 space head start? Only to have them rush again in hopes of losing Gandalf and/or having the option to declare in Lorien at the beginning of Turn 3.

Then the rest of the thread about SP rush vs. plod. Strange that Nico's plod still starts with an MT rush. I really don't think there's a clear cut case for rush or plod being preferable all the time. Clearly FPMVs happen. And they happen much more vs. an SP rush, but they probably happen vs. a plod too, just not very often.

On the original-original thread (the non-hijacked one) there's a discussion about scripting. I do think the 2ed rules lead to more scripting, although I have to admit I know about 1% of what Veldrin does about WotR, and he says the opposite. I do know that as SP I'm going to get Orthanc to war and Saruman, take Helm's Deep and get the WK when Rohan reaches "At War" status. Seems like the quickest and easiest way to 9 SP dice, with very little that can go wrong...

I get that if the SP rushes, they are more vulnerable to both the dunk and the FPMV, but who wants 6 hour games of WotR anyway? My problem that I've encountered with the SP plod is that if you are say 9 v. 5 in dice, with 3 in the hunt box, the SP will be on average equal with available dice on the board. If the dice balance is 9/6, or they roll extra eyes, they they will be behind in available board dice. This is really not a good way to fight an effective campaign. The FP can see you coming from 100 leagues away, and can make it difficult (still not impossible) for the SP to acheive their goals.

For those who paint their minis, don't forget the red and gold "S" on the chest of the 2nd Erebor elite... (as I learned while soloing new rules)
 
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Bill Desmarais
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havoc110 wrote:
Then the rest of the thread about SP rush vs. plod. Strange that Nico's plod still starts with an MT rush. I really don't think there's a clear cut case for rush or plod being preferable all the time. Clearly FPMVs happen. And they happen much more vs. an SP rush, but they probably happen vs. a plod too, just not very often.


To me, this is definitional - it's not a plod if it allows the FPMV.
 
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