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Subject: Upkeep Clarification rss

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Jonathan Ramundi
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The bankruptcy thread has totally confused me on the concept of removing Influnce discs from the board during the Upkeep phase, so I'm hoping this hypothetical sitatuation will be clear enough to understand, and I can get a clear enough answer (from designers/play testers) before finally playing the game in the next few days after having not done so in over a month.

Consider this player board:



Notice the following:
Income = 6
Upkeep = 10
Money = 3

Let's assume the player is able to return Influence discs from hexes without any Money population cubes.

How will this player resolve the Upkeep phase?

1) Money is reduced to 0. One Influence disc is returned to the '-10' spot to pay the difference.

2) Money is reduced to 0. Two Influence discs are returned to the '-10' and '-7' spots such that Income(6) >= Upkeep(5). Then...
i) Money stays at 0.
ii) Money goes up to 1 (because Income(6) - Upkeep(5) = 1).

3) One influence disc is returned to the '-10' spot. Money is reduced to 2 (because Income(6) - Upkeep(7) = -1).

THANKS! *eye twitch*
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Jack Sparrrrow
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Let's assume the player must return both influence discs and money population cubes... Now 1 and 2 are too embroiled! Did I pay enough or no? Are I produce any money more? Wait, how much money I had had before I started solve my economic problems?
You see it? Only answer no. 3 can be used in each possible case and playerboard will always show excatly what your situation is. With other you will be confused at last, though you checked it earlier and it seemed clearly. It's not, it does not work.
 
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Arrr2D2 wrote:
Let's assume the player must return both influence discs and money population cubes... Now 1 and 2 are too embroiled! Did I pay enough or no? Are I produce any money more? Wait, how much money I had had before I started solve my economic problems?
You see it? Only answer no. 3 can be used in each possible case and playerboard will always show excatly what your situation is. With other you will be confused at last, though you checked it earlier and it seemed clearly. It's not, it does not work.
Agreed. It's more finicky the other way, but others seem to insist, this is the way it's supposed to be...

It's not really that confusing in the '2' situation though, because you just have to make sure that you eventually get it such that you at least break even. It's a much more harsh outcome, however, especially if you needed to respond suddenly to an aggressive action made by another player during the round.
 
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Dan Bigmore
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I've pretty much given up trying to understand the Bankruptcy thread - I'm no longer sure what the argument is about.

However, in your example, I've been playing with solution 3. I'm going to reread the rules now.
 
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Jonathan Ramundi
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So have I, and will continue to until convinced otherwise.
 
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Petri Savola
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Jotora wrote:
3) One influence disc is returned to the '-10' spot. Money is reduced to 2 (because Income(6) - Upkeep(7) = -1).

Without reading the bankruptcy threads, this is correct.
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Tom Henderson
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In the rules it states that money income is collected THEN you pay upkeep, then you collect other income.

Once you collect income any changes to income only effect the next turn, you've already collected this turns income.

When you pay your upkeep you need to end up with a positive number or 0. If your current stockpile of money (including this turn's income) isn't enough then you need to trade goods or put influence tokens back. You don't actually pay until you have enough to cover your upkeep.
So in your example you would have to return two discs and you would end up with a balance of 1 unless you had goods to trade. Also remember you can't trade this turns non money income since it is collected after upkeep.
 
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Forrest & Ryan Driskel
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We've been playing #3.

The rules do NOT say money THEN upkeep. It says money AND upkeep ... simultaneously.
 
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Tom Henderson
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Opps I didn't see you had a balance of 3. Yes in that example you would get 9 from income then reduce your disks to -7 and end up with a balance of 2 money.
 
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Tom Henderson
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And now I justg saw this in the FAQ:

Upkeep Phase

Q: During Upkeep Phase, when may I remove Influence Discs from my hexes?
A: Only when you do not have enough Money (produced in this Upkeep, plus your Storage) to pay for the Upkeep. Then you may remove Discs until the Upkeep cost is low enough. Note that if you remove a disc from a hex, the Population cubes are immediately returned to your Production tracks, which may also reduce your Money production.

This seems to imply that changes in money production do effect your income. So you have to take that into account.
 
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Chris Richardson
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I think the FAQ muddies the water. I eagerly await an answer to your very clear question from the Dev team.
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Sampo Sikiö
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Quote:
1) Money is reduced to 0. One Influence disc is returned to the '-10' spot to pay the difference.
2) Money is reduced to 0. Two Influence discs are returned to the '-10' and '-7' spots such that Income(6) >= Upkeep(5). Then...
i) Money stays at 0.
ii) Money goes up to 1 (because Income(6) - Upkeep(5) = 1).
3) One influence disc is returned to the '-10' spot. Money is reduced to 2 (because Income(6) - Upkeep(7) = -1).


3.
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Jack Sparrrrow
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When you learn way no. 3 (or simply acknowledge it) it is simple as a whole game. Others are not... You must count various numbers, perhaps even need a sheet to note in some cases (with strongly exceeded budget and some hex producing money). With rule 3 all you need is player board and it is easy and quick to make.
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David Abel
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Thanks Jotora for this thread.

I too was struggling with this, but #3 seemed like the correct response. Just needed confirmation. Too bad the one example in the rules is for a simple (lose one from storage) calculation and unfortunately located in the bankruptcy section. It should have came earlier under upkeep and another example with influence disk removal should have appeared under bankruptcy.

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Chris Richardson
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I'm glad that's settled. I'll ignore the Bankruptcy thread and play it this way.
 
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Awesome. Thanks for the answer Sampo.

Now I can move on with my life and look forward to playing this incredible game with my friends within the next couple of days. I can't wait! I've been unable to scratch the itch for over a month... *shaking nerviously*

End, you stupid day. END!
 
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JonGetsGames
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If it is number 3, why is it so hard to bankrupt early as the Empire as I keep seeing people say?
 
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Jonathan Ramundi
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HappyHexagon wrote:
If it is number 3, why is it so hard to bankrupt early as the Empire as I keep seeing people say?
Because you start with 26 stockpiled Money.
 
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Jack Sparrrrow
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It's never hard to bankrupt - simply spend all your disc for actions those not increase your money level at the end of round. But it is hard to favorably lead to threat of bankruptcy as Eridani in early game. If you did not change any money in first round to other resource, you need to have upkeep -30 and income at most 4. It looks not good. And when you return only one disc from hex you have enough money to pay and you lost all of your advantages in one round. It's poor strategy for this difficult specie.
 
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JonGetsGames
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Jotora wrote:
HappyHexagon wrote:
If it is number 3, why is it so hard to bankrupt early as the Empire as I keep seeing people say?
Because you start with 26 stockpiled Money.


I understand that, but it seems like number 3 is saying you can pull discs until you are fine, without prioritizing the stockpiled money. I feel like i'm going to need to see a order of operations fit for computer programming before I can say I actually understand the correct interpretation of the rules
 
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Stephen Rochelle
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HappyHexagon wrote:
Jotora wrote:
HappyHexagon wrote:
If it is number 3, why is it so hard to bankrupt early as the Empire as I keep seeing people say?
Because you start with 26 stockpiled Money.


I understand that, but it seems like number 3 is saying you can pull discs until you are fine, without prioritizing the stockpiled money. I feel like i'm going to need to see a order of operations fit for computer programming before I can say I actually understand the correct interpretation of the rules
You only get to pull discs if the stockpiled money isn't sufficient. It can take a while to burn through the Empire's stockpile (and longer to burn through it while creating sufficient income for following turns).
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JonGetsGames
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lomn wrote:
You only get to pull discs if the stockpiled money isn't sufficient. It can take a while to burn through the Empire's stockpile (and longer to burn through it while creating sufficient income for following turns).


Ahh, so if this example player had 4 money stockpiled instead they would not be given the option of bankrupting.
 
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Jonathan Ramundi
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HappyHexagon wrote:
Jotora wrote:
HappyHexagon wrote:
If it is number 3, why is it so hard to bankrupt early as the Empire as I keep seeing people say?
Because you start with 26 stockpiled Money.


I understand that, but it seems like number 3 is saying you can pull discs until you are fine, without prioritizing the stockpiled money. I feel like i'm going to need to see a order of operations fit for computer programming before I can say I actually understand the correct interpretation of the rules
I haven't programmed in years, but I'll try. laugh

If Money + (Income - Upkeep) < 0 then remove (and return to the track) one Influence disc (and the associated cubes).

If Money + (Income - Upkeep) >= 0 continue with the game.

I'm sure my code has a hole in it somewhere (), but basically each time you remove an Influence disc you compare your Income and Money to your Upkeep and continue removing discs until your Income and Money can pay for the Upkeep. (Note that I didn't include the trade mechanic because trading can be done at any time, even right before the Upkeep phase).
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Stephen Rochelle
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HappyHexagon wrote:
lomn wrote:
You only get to pull discs if the stockpiled money isn't sufficient. It can take a while to burn through the Empire's stockpile (and longer to burn through it while creating sufficient income for following turns).


Ahh, so if this example player had 4 money stockpiled instead they would not be given the option of bankrupting.
Exactly right.
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Jonathan Ramundi
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TheRakeman wrote:
tommh wrote:
And now I justg saw this in the FAQ:

Upkeep Phase

Q: During Upkeep Phase, when may I remove Influence Discs from my hexes?
A: Only when you do not have enough Money (produced in this Upkeep, plus your Storage) to pay for the Upkeep. Then you may remove Discs until the Upkeep cost is low enough. Note that if you remove a disc from a hex, the Population cubes are immediately returned to your Production tracks, which may also reduce your Money production.

This seems to imply that changes in money production do effect your income. So you have to take that into account.


So if you have -10 upkeep and make 8 income (0 stockpile), and then you pull a disc from a hex that you have money population on, reducing you to -7 upkeep and 6 income, you need to pull another hex? That is how I played, because even though you have 8 income (which is enough for -7 upkeep), when you removed that cube your new income is not enough, and that's what matters.
Correct.
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