Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
29 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: A Couple of Questions rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Brad Koziey
Canada
Oakville
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
My first play earlier today. In addition to reading the rules and FAQ I watched some online videos of play.

I played Leadership against Passage Through Mirkwood. Just choose Leadership randomly, no real idea of how to play any of the different spheres yet. I'm sure that will come with some more plays.

Questions:

1 - Grim Resolve - I committed all 3 heroes to the quest. My plan was to play Grim Resolve after the Quest Phase to ready heroes for combat. As it turned out the Encounter card was Necromancer(?sp). Finished me off!!

According to the Turn Sequence chart in the rules a player action can not be played before the encounter deck reveal so I took a chance and suffered the consequences. I just want to make confirm that player actions are only playable at the specified points in the turn sequence.

2 - Godin(?sp) - Gets 1 resource token in his resource pool for each damage point. I assume that this is immediately added to his available resources. I assume that this effect does not persist to the next resource phase ie. he gets 1 token at the time of damage and that's it.

I'm loving it so far and I think it will take a few plays before I can understand how to play Leadership. If this scenario is DL=1 I can't imagine what a DL=7 will be like!!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason
United States
Champaign
Illinois
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CrackerJack747 wrote:
1 - Grim Resolve - I committed all 3 heroes to the quest. My plan was to play Grim Resolve after the Quest Phase to ready heroes for combat. As it turned out the Encounter card was Necromancer(?sp). Finished me off!!


I assume you're referring to The Necromancer's Reach.

Quote:
According to the Turn Sequence chart in the rules a player action can not be played before the encounter deck reveal so I took a chance and suffered the consequences. I just want to make confirm that player actions are only playable at the specified points in the turn sequence.


You're correct. Grim Resolve is a normal action and cannot be played in response to a revealed encounter card. There are reactions which can be played in response to revealed encounter cards, for example Eleanor's ability.

Quote:
2 - Godin(?sp) - Gets 1 resource token in his resource pool for each damage point. I assume that this is immediately added to his available resources. I assume that this effect does not persist to the next resource phase ie. he gets 1 token at the time of damage and that's it.


Correct again. Gloin's ability is a response, so it triggers only when he is dealt damage.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Duke Of Lizards
United States
Montpelier
Vermont
flag msg tools
Livin's mostly wasting time, and I waste my share of mine
badge
I am a breathing time machine
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CrackerJack747 wrote:
My first play earlier today. In addition to reading the rules and FAQ I watched some online videos of play.

I played Leadership against Passage Through Mirkwood. Just choose Leadership randomly, no real idea of how to play any of the different spheres yet. I'm sure that will come with some more plays.

Questions:

1 - Grim Resolve - I committed all 3 heroes to the quest. My plan was to play Grim Resolve after the Quest Phase to ready heroes for combat. As it turned out the Encounter card was Necromancer(?sp). Finished me off!!

According to the Turn Sequence chart in the rules a player action can not be played before the encounter deck reveal so I took a chance and suffered the consequences. I just want to make confirm that player actions are only playable at the specified points in the turn sequence.



Right. You could have played Grim Resolve after comitting them to the quest and before revealing the encounter card, but not between revealing the card and resolving its effects.

CrackerJack747 wrote:
2 - Godin(?sp) - Gets 1 resource token in his resource pool for each damage point. I assume that this is immediately added to his available resources. I assume that this effect does not persist to the next resource phase ie. he gets 1 token at the time of damage and that's it.


You add a resource token to Gloin's pool and it stays there just like any other resource token.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tony Fanchi
United States
Saint Paul
Minnesota
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CrackerJack747 wrote:
1 - Grim Resolve - I committed all 3 heroes to the quest. My plan was to play Grim Resolve after the Quest Phase to ready heroes for combat. As it turned out the Encounter card was Necromancer(?sp). Finished me off!!

According to the Turn Sequence chart in the rules a player action can not be played before the encounter deck reveal so I took a chance and suffered the consequences. I just want to make confirm that player actions are only playable at the specified points in the turn sequence.

It is true that actions are only playable at certain times. However, you are able to take player actions (including playing Grim Resolve) during the stage when you commit characters to the quest. You could play Grim Resolve after committing the characters to ready them immediately, and they are still considered committed to the quest.

CrackerJack747 wrote:
2 - Godin(?sp) - Gets 1 resource token in his resource pool for each damage point. I assume that this is immediately added to his available resources. I assume that this effect does not persist to the next resource phase ie. he gets 1 token at the time of damage and that's it.

I believe you mean Gloin. Yes, the token is added immediately upon receiving the wound, and is immediately available for use. Gloin does NOT receive additional resources during the resource phase each round for wounds on him.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Koziey
Canada
Oakville
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Thank you for the quick responses!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Koziey
Canada
Oakville
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Tony, sorry I read your response again and I'm confused.

Once the characters are committed to the quest the encounter card is then revealed immediately. After that reveal a player action is possible. This is how I read the chart on page 30 of the rules.

You are saying that the action can be played as part of the committing characters to quest step. If this is the case then why do they bother specifying specific player action points in the flow chart?

Again I'm just started playing so I could be wrong but it I'd like to get it right.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Ludlow
United States
Saint Louis Park
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CrackerJack747 wrote:
If this is the case then why do they bother specifying specific player action points in the flow chart?
Some of those are redundant. You can play actions during any green step.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Rachemoss
United States
Silver City
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CrackerJack747 wrote:
Once the characters are committed to the quest the encounter card is then revealed immediately. After that reveal a player action is possible. This is how I read the chart on page 30 of the rules.

The chart on page 30 is very misleading. Instead, look at page 13 of the rule book:
Quote:
Phase 3: Quest
In the quest phase, the players attempt to make progress
on the current stage of their quest. This phase is broken
into three steps: 1) commit characters, 2) staging, and
3) quest resolution. Players have the opportunity to take
actions and play event cards at the end of each step.


Step 1: Commit Characters
Each player may commit characters to the current quest
card. [...]

Step 2: Staging
After each player has had the opportunity to commit
characters to the quest, the encounter deck reveals
one card per player. [...]


The timing sequence chart here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/66224/timing-sequence-...
contains all this information on a single page.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Koziey
Canada
Oakville
Ontario
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
Ok got it now! Thank you! I'll put page 30 aside and stick with the Timing Chart. Now I'm dying to get questing again.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zeb Ulon

Oxford
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
[q="BitJam"]
Quote:
Phase 3: Quest
In the quest phase, the players attempt to make progress
on the current stage of their quest. This phase is broken
into three steps: 1) commit characters, 2) staging, and
3) quest resolution. Players have the opportunity to take
actions and play event cards at the end of each step.


Step 1: Commit Characters
Each player may commit characters to the current quest
card. [...]


There is just one problem with this rule: the "We do not Sleep" card would be unplayable ("Action: Until the end of the phase, Rohan characters do not exhaust to commit to quests."), as its action would only be played after characters are commited and exhausted.

Either they need to accept actions before committing (seems to be ok according to the chart) or they need to errata the card (like Gildor's Counsel: "Play during the Quest phase, before characters are committed to the Quest.").
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Saloff
United States
Edinboro
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
This is a rebellion, isn't it? I rebel.
badge
He's a card player, gambler, scoundrel. You'd like him.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
zebulon_ wrote:
There is just one problem with this rule: the "We do not Sleep" card would be unplayable ("Action: Until the end of the phase, Rohan characters do not exhaust to commit to quests."), as its action would only be played after characters are commited and exhausted.

Either they need to accept actions before committing (seems to be ok according to the chart) or they need to errata the card (like Gildor's Counsel: "Play during the Quest phase, before characters are committed to the Quest.").


Except the "Players commit characters to the quest" step is Green on the Turn Sequence Chart, meaning you can play actions during that step AND also after each step like that page of the rulebook says.

So you can play We Do Not Sleep during the 'commit characters to quest' step before exhausting anyone. The card works fine.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zeb Ulon

Oxford
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Mattr0polis wrote:

Except the "Players commit characters to the quest" step is Green on the Turn Sequence Chart, meaning you can play actions during that step AND also after each step like that page of the rulebook says.

So you can play We Do Not Sleep during the 'commit characters to quest' step before exhausting anyone. The card works fine.


I agree with you, but the core text of the rules would not theoretically allow it. The chart should not be complementary (or even contradictory) to the written rules, but a reflection, a summary of the rules, if the rules were written correctly.

Furthermore, it raises the question of why this is specified on Gildor's Counsel card: if it were not for the Golden Rule, why did they feel they had to specify this?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Morris
Scotland
Harrogate
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Join the BGG Folding @Home Team !!
badge
This user had more :gg: than sense
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
zebulon_ wrote:
Mattr0polis wrote:

Except the "Players commit characters to the quest" step is Green on the Turn Sequence Chart, meaning you can play actions during that step AND also after each step like that page of the rulebook says.

So you can play We Do Not Sleep during the 'commit characters to quest' step before exhausting anyone. The card works fine.


I agree with you, but the core text of the rules would not theoretically allow it. The chart should not be complementary (or even contradictory) to the written rules, but a reflection, a summary of the rules, if the rules were written correctly.

Furthermore, it raises the question of why this is specified on Gildor's Counsel card: if it were not for the Golden Rule, why did they feel they had to specify this?


1) I think that I read somewhere (probably on here) that FFG are going to publish a new timing chart - even they realise they did a poor job and need to fix it.

2) There is no enforced consistency across the card texts - something many of us have complained about. Inferring the behaviour of one card by assuming some level of consistency doesn't work. Unfortunately.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zeb Ulon

Oxford
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
1) I think that I read somewhere (probably on here) that FFG are going to publish a new timing chart - even they realise they did a poor job and need to fix it.


That would be from me laugh after I emailed Nate regarding Forced event timings of the type Vassal/Melendor. He mentioned there would be a better timing chart in the next FAQ. See this thread.

Quote:
2) There is no enforced consistency across the card texts - something many of us have complained about. Inferring the behaviour of one card by assuming some level of consistency doesn't work. Unfortunately.


I am working on an annotated sequence chart, where I put various card text triggering effects. Actually there are not that many variations, and there is a better consistency in latest card packs. For instance, when Wolf Rider said "after combat", this has now become "after the end of combat phase" in later cards, and "after X attacks" has become "After an attack in which X attacked/defended resolves" (and Nate has solved this "resolve" time point).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Ludlow
United States
Saint Louis Park
Minnesota
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
1) I think that I read somewhere (probably on here) that FFG are going to publish a new timing chart - even they realise they did a poor job and need to fix it.


The timing chart for A Game of Thrones LCG would be a good bar to shoot for. They did a nice job with that one.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Rachemoss
United States
Silver City
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
zebulon_ wrote:
Mattr0polis wrote:

Except the "Players commit characters to the quest" step is Green on the Turn Sequence Chart, meaning you can play actions during that step AND also after each step like that page of the rulebook says.

So you can play We Do Not Sleep during the 'commit characters to quest' step before exhausting anyone. The card works fine.


I agree with you, but the core text of the rules would not theoretically allow it. The chart should not be complementary (or even contradictory) to the written rules, but a reflection, a summary of the rules, if the rules were written correctly.

IMO, you raise a false distinction between "the core text" of rules and the chart on page 30. They are all part of the same rule book and need to be interpreted as a whole.

OTOH I totally agree that requiring players to flip back and forth between the chart on page 30 and the "core text" is an extremely poor design. This is why I keep promoting bert_nerdsen's timing sequence chart. It combines the information in the chart on page 30 with relevant timing/action information that is scattered throughout the "core text".

Quote:
Furthermore, it raises the question of why this is specified on Gildor's Counsel card: if it were not for the Golden Rule, why did they feel they had to specify this?

The text of the card reads:
Gildor's Counsel wrote:
Play during the Quest phase, before characters are committed to the Quest.

Action: Reveal 1 less card from the encounter deck this phase. (To a minimum of 1.)

The first sentence is a restriction on the use of the card. It has nothing to do with the Golden Rule. Without this restriction the card could be played during the action window after characters are committed to the quest but before encounter cards are revealed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zeb Ulon

Oxford
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BitJam wrote:
They are all part of the same rule book and need to be interpreted as a whole.


In the text, you are only allowed to play actions at the end of the each step of the Quest phase, thus after characters have been committed. This is a problem for "We Do Not Sleep". In the chart, you are allowed to play actions "generally". There is no reference to "end of phase" anymore, implying it is possible to play before the first step.

You cannot interpret the rules as a whole, because they do contradict! Nobody but the authors is sure which rule is correct, because either the text or the chart could be wrong! Only analysis of one card implies that there is a strong chance the chart is correct.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Rachemoss
United States
Silver City
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
zebulon_ wrote:
In the text, you are only allowed to play actions at the end of the each step of the Quest phase, ...

I think this might be the source of our disagreement. You added the word only which is not in the section of the rules on page 14 that we are talking about:
Quote:
Phase 3: Quest
In the quest phase, the players attempt to make progress on the current stage of their quest. This phase is broken into three steps: 1) commit characters, 2) staging, and 3) quest resolution. Players have the opportunity to take actions and play event cards at the end of each step.

If the rule book had instead said: Players have the opportunity to can only take actions and play event cards at the end of each step then I would agree with you that this contradicts every other place in the rule book where it says player actions are allowed.

The rules (at least this part), as written, do not contradict. They are additive. In general, player actions are allowed in every place the rule book says they are allowed. There might be some rule (now or in the future) that forbids player actions with the word cannot during a time when other rules would allow player actions. Even this would not be a contradiction, it would be an exception.

The rulebook for this game was not one of FFG's finest achievements. I personally don't think the problem you point out actually exists. OTOH, if you still do then perhaps there is something that FFG could change in a future edition that would make this more clear.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Morris
Scotland
Harrogate
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Join the BGG Folding @Home Team !!
badge
This user had more :gg: than sense
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BitJam wrote:
Quote:
Phase 3: Quest
In the quest phase, the players attempt to make progress on the current stage of their quest. This phase is broken into three steps: 1) commit characters, 2) staging, and 3) quest resolution. Players have the opportunity to take actions and play event cards at the end of each step.

If the rule book had instead said: Players have the opportunity to can only take actions and play event cards at the end of each step then I would agree with you that this contradicts every other place in the rule book where it says player actions are allowed.

The rules (at least this part), as written, do not contradict.


They may not contradict, but they are an example of the terrible editing in this rule book. The sentence
Quote:
Players have the opportunity to take actions and play event cards at the end of each step.
is at best misleading because the "at the end of the step" is unnecessary if you can do it all the way through the step.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zeb Ulon

Oxford
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BitJam wrote:
If the rule book had instead said: Players have the opportunity to can only take actions and play event cards at the end of each step then I would agree with you that this contradicts every other place in the rule book where it says player actions are allowed.


Well, in that case, no rule in the book is correct if it is not preceded with "only" or "obligatory", which makes a lot of them! When the sequence is described in the core rule, it is supposed to be sound and complete. Players are not supposed to "fill the blanks" in the rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zeb Ulon

Oxford
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
They may not contradict, but they are an example of the terrible editing in this rule book. The sentence
Quote:
Players have the opportunity to take actions and play event cards at the end of each step.
is at best misleading because the "at the end of the step" is unnecessary if you can do it all the way through the step.


Not only that, but this is because of these fuzzy descriptions that we needed two FAQs and Nate's (very clear and nice) answers to be sure that Forced effects had to be played before the last player action window of combat phase.

I am sure that by the next FAQ we will have a very precise and unambiguous sequence, but it is surprising ze did not get one in the first place. Did not the beta testers find these issues?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Morris
Scotland
Harrogate
North Yorkshire
flag msg tools
designer
Join the BGG Folding @Home Team !!
badge
This user had more :gg: than sense
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
zebulon_ wrote:
Did not the beta testers find these issues?


I suspect that we will never know. It is clear that something is somewhat broken at FFG, but not clear what.

Some have used such issues to complain about the lack of playtesting. The more that I play the more I am coming round to thinking that the balance (but not the scalability) is actually pretty good, which seems to suggest that they did a good amount of playtesting and tweaking to react to the playtesting findings. However, it seems incredible that playtesters would not have found some of these sorts of issues if they were working from the documentation that we have, and nothing else. That leads me to think that the most likely reason for the shambles is that they did plenty of playtesting, but the vast majority of it was by people who did not read the documentation that we have, because 'they already knew the answers' - probably because at least one of the playtesters was a walking talking manual who did know it all. That, at least, seems less damning than the alternative that they did get piles of feedback about all this, but chose to do nothing about it. Whatever the truth actually is, it does not put FFG in a very good light.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bart Rachemoss
United States
Silver City
New Mexico
flag msg tools
Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
zebulon_ wrote:
BitJam wrote:
If the rule book had instead said: Players have the opportunity to can only take actions and play event cards at the end of each step then I would agree with you that this contradicts every other place in the rule book where it says player actions are allowed.


Well, in that case, no rule in the book is correct if it is not preceded with "only" or "obligatory", which makes a lot of them!

I don't understand your logic here. It seems like you are insisting that the rule in question (on page 14) must be interpreted with an "only" which then creates the contradiction you originally complained about.

Why on earth would many of the rules need the words "only" or "obligatory"? Wouldn't that cause many more contradictions, similar to the contradiction you originally complained about?

There was no explict "only" in the rule we are discussing. This means there was no contradiction. Why do you now insist on inserting an implicit "only"?

There are plenty of legitimate problems with the rulebook. Creating new problems that don't actually exist (if this is what you are doing) just adds a bunch of noise that makes it more difficult to address and focus on the real problems.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Zeb Ulon

Oxford
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
BitJam wrote:

I don't understand your logic here. It seems like you are insisting that the rule in question (on page 14) must be interpreted with an "only" which then creates the contradiction you originally complained about.

Why on earth would many of the rules need the words "only" or "obligatory"? Wouldn't that cause many more contradictions, similar to the contradiction you originally complained about?



It is the logic of the authors that I do not understand. As Richard said above, why mention the "end of each step" if this has even no significance or importance? If you can play actions any time of questing phase, why don't they write it? And no, the chart is not a complement for the written rules.

Let's take an example: you buy a car. In the manual, they write: "you have the opportunity to fill the tank on Sundays". Wouldn't you think: what does this imply? Wouldn't you ask the vendor why they need to say you can refill on Sunday? Then he would answer: "but Sir, we never said you could only refill on Sunday, just that you can on Sunday, but also the other days of the week." Wouldn't you think: WTF? If I were the vendor, I would entirely remove the Sunday bit. It is exactly the same issue here.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Saloff
United States
Edinboro
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
This is a rebellion, isn't it? I rebel.
badge
He's a card player, gambler, scoundrel. You'd like him.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
zebulon_ wrote:
why mention the "end of each step" if this has even no significance or importance? If you can play actions any time of questing phase, why don't they write it?


Because you can't play actions "at any time of questing phase" or during each step. Only during and after the 'Commit Characters Step', after the 'Staging Step', and after the 'Quest Resolution Step'.

That being said, the timing sequence rules/chart setup IS horrible but that is something we've all beaten to death for the last 6 months, it's not new. We know it, FFG knows it, etc. But the game is hardly unplayable if you read everything.

Between the poorly written rules, some of the errata and clarifications that made little sense, and the debauchered game scoring rules, they are just lucky that this game is so damn fun, lol.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.