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Subject: 2-player opinion rss

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Rick Teverbaugh
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I haven't played the game much and part of it is because I game a lot with 2 players. I'd like to know two things. The first is how good is the 2-player game? The second is: How good is it if the players aren't experienced in playing the game?

Thanks for any help.

 
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William Crispin
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38% recommend it with 2 but I can not understand why. There are so many good 2P games and playing this 2P is just like that square peg - round hole saying.
 
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brian
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rickert wrote:
I haven't played the game much and part of it is because I game a lot with 2 players. I'd like to know two things. The first is how good is the 2-player game? The second is: How good is it if the players aren't experienced in playing the game?

Thanks for any help.


Playing the game with more helps understand and the flow of the game. The rules even suggest you do this before attempting the 2-player game. It's not that difficult to figure out, but it does help you understand why you are doing what.

The 2-player is decent. You can obviously plan because you are getting back the same set of cards minus one. In 6 and 7 player games, you never get to see that exact set of hands. So it makes the game a bit more strategic.

The dummy player works well enough. You have to be careful not to give him too many points but you can set it up so he helps you without helping your opponent.
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E D
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my wife and i really enjoy this 2-player. playing a card for the third imaginary player adds some nice strategy options: ways to prevent opponent from getting certain cards or as a money engine.
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James
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I'll just add my impressions. The two player game doesn't do it for me. I also do think it would feel especially flat for many if they hadn't played the proper game with three or more. I love 7 Wonders for three to seven players - just not with two.

As was said, there are so many other great two player games out there.
 
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In my opinion games that force fewer players to take on the role of missing players do not actually support fewer players.

Using that rationale, every game could be labeled a solitaire game.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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frumpish wrote:
In my opinion games that force fewer players to take on the role of missing players do not actually support fewer players.

Using that rationale, every game could be labeled a solitaire game.


I appreciate the input from everyone. But T.R., the way I read the rules, that's not what the 7 Wonders 2-player rules do.
 
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James
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rickert wrote:
frumpish wrote:
In my opinion games that force fewer players to take on the role of missing players do not actually support fewer players.

Using that rationale, every game could be labeled a solitaire game.


I appreciate the input from everyone. But T.R., the way I read the rules, that's not what the 7 Wonders 2-player rules do.


Having played the two player game, it's close enough to being the truth, actually. Yes, you're trying not to let the dummy hand win, but you, along with your opponent, are managing the dummy hand as a third player. It's not like trying to play Chaos in the Old World with two players playing two sides each, but the most unpleasant aspects of playing in this awkward manner are still there, the bookkeeping, the divided attention, etc. I'm with T.R. on this one.

No offense to those who enjoy the two player variant, of course; you guys are getting enjoyment from something I can't. That's a good thing for you.
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Rick Teverbaugh
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Brother Jim wrote:
rickert wrote:
frumpish wrote:
In my opinion games that force fewer players to take on the role of missing players do not actually support fewer players.

Using that rationale, every game could be labeled a solitaire game.


I appreciate the input from everyone. But T.R., the way I read the rules, that's not what the 7 Wonders 2-player rules do.


Having played the two player game, it's close enough to being the truth, actually. Yes, you're trying not to let the dummy hand win, but you, along with your opponent, are managing the dummy hand as a third player. It's not like trying to play Chaos in the Old World with two players playing two sides each, but the most unpleasant aspects of playing in this awkward manner are still there, the bookkeeping, the divided attention, etc. I'm with T.R. on this one.

No offense to those who enjoy the two player variant, of course; you guys are getting enjoyment from something I can't. That's a good thing for you.


Not trying to start an argument, but the way I read the rules the dummy hand can't win so why try to keep it from winning? I thought the idea was to have more points than your opponent? I even understand from a couple of earlier posts in this thread that there are strategies as to what to give to the dummy in 2-player game that are missing with 3 or more?
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James
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Allow me to qualify. I meant that you don't want to lose an advantageous position with regard to your human opponent or the "free city."

With regard to the additional strategies that won't be found in a three to seven player game, there might be something there, but I just didn't see much that interested me (enough to play this instead of a proper two player game).

The initial question addressed how "good" the the two player game was. It didn't leave a good impression with me when I played it. I think T.R.'s comment was fair; it felt to me more like an abstraction of a third player being at the table rather than a true two player game. That's just how it felt to me; I don't have any investment in you feeling the same way.

It's a great game; buy it. You might like the two player variant. Many people do.
 
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Rick Teverbaugh
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I own it and have since GenCon, but the few times that I have had more than 2 of us to play, people mostly wanted to play something they already knew. So I have only played 3 games total and one of them was the demo at GenCon.I also bought Leaders and have not yet played that. I also bought the magazines that contained the Stevie Wonder card and the fountain.
 
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James
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Ah, I didn't see it in your owned games on your profile. I am a little jealous of you having the Mannekin Pis Wonder (I'll have to pick that up). I had to make a pilgrimage there when I was in Brussels. I really liked the Leaders Expansion and won't play without it now, though it does seem to add more uncertainty and can hurt the balance somewhat.

Yes, force your friends to play! It fills a gap that is so often open - a 30 minute filler for a larger group of people.

Since you already own the game, yes, go ahead and play the two person variant. If you like it or don't like it, you've only lost thirty minutes. As was mentioned, though, definitely play it with someone who's played the 3+ game before.
 
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brian
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rickert wrote:
I own it and have since GenCon, but the few times that I have had more than 2 of us to play, people mostly wanted to play something they already knew. So I have only played 3 games total and one of them was the demo at GenCon.I also bought Leaders and have not yet played that. I also bought the magazines that contained the Stevie Wonder card and the fountain.

If you have the game, just play it! Sure, there are better 2-player games out there. But you need to form your own opinion. And you have everything so why not just experience it first hand and not let others form your opinion for you?

This game gets a ton of play from us because it accommodates 7 and we frequently have exactly 7 at game night. But my wife rarely can be there but loves this game. So the only way she can play when she wants is the two of us. She likes it as it gives her the chance to play and she feels it is good.

You have to insert the 3rd player or Wars would get really wonky. It also makes buying resources make more sense. The original game is about interacting with your left and right neighbor. It wouldn't work if both of those were the same person. It is not a dummy player i the traditional sense but falls more under the category of what Alhambra and Airlines Europe have done - give a mechanism so that there are strategic decisions to be made that aren't black and white. Instead of sub-optimal choices that automatically benefit your opponent, you have an opportunity to maximize some benefit to you and minimize what he gets.

The 2-player game works. And if it will be the only way to get the game to the table, take advantage of it. If it fails for you, trade it away. It is a solid enough game that someone will take it off your hands.
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Richard Ham
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My wife and I really enjoy it two player, and can't understand why anyone wouldn't (and generally, when people say they don't, they tend not to give any concrete reason, I've noticed - this is because I don't think the actual game can be faulted).

I've played the game a lot with all numbers of players, and 2p is different but still great. Good enough to own the game for. I'd say its actually much deeper, because the shared control over the 3rd city gives a lot more interesting options, adding more viable strategies to the game, and with only one card drafting partner, you have very tense decisions to make, moreso than with more players, IMO.

And there's no reason to be worried about learning it as a 2p game. Overall the game is fairly simple anyway, and the 2p rules are easy to follow and understand. We started playing the game 2p, and it was quite awhile before I played with more.

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Thomas Staudt
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Full disclosure:I personally hate playing games with 2 players that need substantial changes to make them playable with 2.

Having said that, I think that 7 Wonders is one of the very few games where this effort really works: Being able to take out cards your opponent might need, while playing cards that might benefit you, adds a whole new layer to the game which I actually like very much.

(You may be able to find a post where I say differently, but my opinion on this has changed in the last months).


 
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Vince Lupo
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rickert wrote:
I haven't played the game much and part of it is because I game a lot with 2 players. I'd like to know two things. The first is how good is the 2-player game? The second is: How good is it if the players aren't experienced in playing the game?

Thanks for any help.





We love it 2 player but we made a variant that makes it feel more like 3 player than 2.5 player. It's posted in the variants section of these forums.


Basic gist? The dummy 3rd player plays a random card each turn. It usually tries to build a building. If it can't then it tries to build it's wonder. If it can't then it gets 3 coins. And when it has to pay money, it tries to pay as fairly as possible.
 
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Louie Knight
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I have played several games of 7 Wonders and the leaders expansion. Lots of 2, 3 and 4 player games and one 7 player game. When I play with my roommate it is one of the best 2 player games I have played. I really love it. The way that you can manipulate the dummy player to get what you want is brilliant and adds a sweet level of strategy to the game. Also there seems to be a little more planning as well as a little more tension wondering if your opponent is going to give the card you want to the dummy player or use it himself. Really enjoy the 2-player variant.
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James
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rahdo wrote:
My wife and I really enjoy it two player, and can't understand why anyone wouldn't (and generally, when people say they don't, they tend not to give any concrete reason, I've noticed - this is because I don't think the actual game can be faulted).


Richard, given my comments here:
Quote:
the most unpleasant aspects of playing in this awkward manner are still there, the bookkeeping, the divided attention, etc...


here:

Quote:
it felt to me more like an abstraction of a third player being at the table rather than a true two player game.


and here:
Quote:
No offense to those who enjoy the two player variant, of course; you guys are getting enjoyment from something I can't. That's a good thing for you.


...I don't really think you're being totally fair. The OP asked if the game were "good." I replied why it didn't leave a good impression with me, but I didn't find it necessary to say it was objectively bad. I included reasons but I explicitly left room for other intelligent people to disagree and I think I did so in a civil fashion. Can't sometimes different people have different tastes in games without finding "fault" either in the game or in the players? I've always enjoyed reading your posts, for what it's worth (my wife beats me all the time, too!).
 
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Marcel Lademann
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Many opinions and reasonings are already given so I add my only briefly:

7 Wonders is my favorite 2-player game. I play it (with Leaders expansion) 2-3 times daily with my gf and it is not getting boring at all.

There are so many "good 2-player-games" that fell flat for at least one of us (Jambo, Rosenkönig, Aton, Lost Cities) and I am so happy that I spent the 30€ for 7 Wonders.

I also introduced the 2-player variant to non-gamers that haven't played much beyond yatzy and scrabble before. They also got into the flow of the game very fast (2-3 games) and wanted to replay it over and over.

My suggestion: Buy and have fun. And if you really don't like it, you will easily find someone who is interested in your copy.
 
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Jose Velasquez
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My wife and I thoroughly enjoy 7 Wonders 2 player with and without Leaders. Not sure what 2 player games are out there that are better than that other than perhaps Carcassonne or Chess.
 
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My wife and I have played the 3 player game a dozen or so times, mainly with non gamers and we have loved every game; as have the non gamers. We played the 2 player variant last week (admittedly only once) and I don't think we'll be trying it again.

I can see what people mean by additional strategy, but we just felt the game didn't flow well and was slightloy forced. A game that doesn't flow is less enjoyable for us, therefore we'll stick to other games which work better with 2 players (in our opinion) such as Dominion.
 
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Richard Ham
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Brother J, sorry, didn't mean to offend. I agree that, after further questioning, you did give more concrete reasons for not liking 7 Wonders 2p than is normally given in threads like this. My comment was directed towards the plethora of "it just doesn't work, full stop" posts that are so common in responding to this question, like the 2nd post in this thread, and your original post before you followed up
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James
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Sorry, too, Richard, if I misconstrued your post. You know, I just had a marathon gaming session with an experienced gaming buddy with similar tastes to mine and I mentioned this thread. He took a few minutes to tell me how wrong I was about 7 Wonders 2P. Heck, maybe it was me! I'll quietly excuse myself now...
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Matthew Herron
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For starters, I agree that there are plenty of great two player games out there, and maybe this one shouldn't be at the front of the queue. That said, I bought this game for larger gaming situations and after a few dozen plays, have come to a much different opinion to some of the comments above.

My personal experience is that this is a game that is better as a two player than any other format and is in our current line up of two player games (with race for the galaxy, dominion, samurai, agricola, battle line, and others). True, the ability to have 7 play concurrently is nice and somewhat rare, but I often feel in such situations that I'm hardly even playing the same game with the people across the table. Generally, I'm paying the most attention to the people next to me but I have a limited effect on their play. Each card stack comes around once or twice, so planning is lessened and the tension of hoping a card comes back to me is minor to non-existent. Any strategy burying cards or discarding to interrupt another player's strategy is fairly limited, unless I convince others to do the same (which, if not done secretly, sort of defeats the purpose).

With two players, however, every move directly effects your competition, strategies for drafting can be planned several turns in advance, and the dummy becomes a valuable partner on your turn, and can be a fierce enemy on your opponent's.

I see the this as a lighter weight game, and so the drawbacks of playing with several people are offset by the fact that it is fun, easy to teach (somewhat), has a great theme, and is pretty quick. I suppose that if I put a lot of time and effort into memorizing the number of each card type and then counting cards during the game, the strategy might be much much deeper. Perhaps I am just not giving this game enough brain power, and that is where I am missing the strategy in larger games. However, I think the there are plenty of deeper strategy games out there to spend my time with.

As a side note, I think the leaders expansion increases enjoyment and depth of both the 2-player variant and the regular game, and to some extent, solves some of reduced control and strategy problems in larger games. While the two player games didn't need that boost as much, multi-player games certainly did.

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Rick Teverbaugh
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Thanks Matt. I appreciate every one of the replies, but I found yours to be especially compelling and seems to cut closer to home to my gaming and tastes. I will try it soon. Thanks to all who replied.
 
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