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Subject: Ok maybe I'm just slow but my copy of the rules... rss

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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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...don't mention what the host card does.
...do not mention how infections are resolved/dodged. It seems hands of cards end up the same regardless, which to me is confusing as all get out.
...do not adequately explain how the Heat Scanner actually tells you anything useful, as the results of the point above polute your hand with infection cards even if you are not infected...


And for bonus points .... there are like more files claiming to be the "rules" for this game than I've ever seen for a game, only one of which (matching my own rules) comes from the publisher.


...so confused.
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David Ausloos
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All these things are mentioned in the rules, but I suggest downloading V2.2 of the rules since they are better worded. You can download a printer-friendly version nin the files section. There are alot of files partly because the game is translated in alot of languages.

Quote:
...don't mention what the host card does.
...do not mention how infections are resolved/dodged. It seems hands of cards end up the same regardless, which to me is confusing as all get out.


The player receiving the host card is the traitor of the party.
He can use the infection cards right from the start in an attempt to hinder the human team, preventing them from burning the hive, by infecting them one by one and pulling each human player to his side.
Only the host can play these infection cards right from the start.

Quote:
...do not adequately explain how the Heat Scanner actually tells you anything useful, as the results of the point above polute your hand with infection cards even if you are not infected...


The heatscanner tells you how many infected players are in play at the moment when the scan is conducted. This doesn't give you precise information who is infected and who is uninfected, but if you time the scans smartly it sure helps to deduct who might be an infector.
With help of the bodyscanner amongst the searchcards (the most powerful card in the deck) you can look straight into the hand of a player and get some powerful information, not only telling you if the player himself is to be trusted, but also most possible showing infection cards of other players if played at the optimal time.

Hope this helps.
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Nevin Steindam
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ausloosd wrote:
Quote:
...do not adequately explain how the Heat Scanner actually tells you anything useful, as the results of the point above polute your hand with infection cards even if you are not infected...


The heatscanner tells you how many infected players are in play at the moment when the scan is conducted. This doesn't give you precise information who is infected and who is uninfected, but if you time the scans smartly it sure helps to deduct who might be an infector.
With help of the bodyscanner amongst the searchcards (the most powerful card in the deck) you can look straight into the hand of a player and get some powerful information, not only telling you if the player himself is to be trusted, but also most possible showing infection cards of other players if played at the optimal time.

Hope this helps.


I think the OP was referring to the body scanner card when he asked about the heat scanner. So here's an expanded explanation of the last paragraph above:

It's true that if you look at someone else's hand and see other players' Infection cards, that only tells you that those other players TRIED to infect the one you're scanning. The attempts may or may not have failed. But you DO get some information.

Watch for the following things:

* Does the player's hand have the Host card in it? Obviously, this player is the Host.
* Does the player's hand have no Host or other Infection cards? That proves that the player is still a good guy.
* Does the player's hand have Infection cards of another color? You'd discovered incontrovertible evidence that the player of THAT color is infected.
* Does the player's hand still have all three Infection cards? If any are missing, then that is proof that they ARE infected, as well as how active they've been in converting people.

Unfortunately, if they have another player's Infection card but still have all three of their own, you can't tell whether they fought off the infection attempt or were converted but are still lying low. However, you'll always get some definite information, just maybe not about the player you were scanning directly.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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ausloosd wrote:
All these things are mentioned in the rules, but I suggest downloading V2.2 of the rules since they are better worded.


Gotcha. Found it, a bit confusing as the publisher was doing original uploads and I didn't recognize you as the designer (also the v2.2 file is name v2.1, which didn't help)

I definitely need to challenge the above statement - to validate my own sanity I've combed the rules, and the things I said were not in there? Not in there.

Water under the bridge and all that, but I almost want to write Stronghold Games a letter suggesting they actually provide nicely printed instruction replacements seeing as its almost unplayable with the ones in the box.

Still confused about the portable heat scanner and infections - more specifically how I could possibly successfully explain either to new players without making their brains hurt. That players can start handing around infection cards of other players colors if they don't have items to trade is ... gosh I just don't know how to tell people how to decode this. I'm surprised to see the Infected status being *entirely* the honor system, as only the host will have a card indicating conclusively what his status is.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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...as a related aside, does anyone know if they will send me new stickers if my attempts to take a grey sticker off my nicely double-sided grey parasites fail?
 
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David Ausloos
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apotheos wrote:
more specifically how I could possibly successfully explain either to new players without making their brains hurt. That players can start handing around infection cards of other players colors if they don't have items to trade is ...


If it is of any comfort: this happens only very very rarely...
Chances are you will not need this rule in your first few plays.
 
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Lee Fisher
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Were your rules missing any pages?
 
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Andrew Martin
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apotheos wrote:
ausloosd wrote:
All these things are mentioned in the rules, but I suggest downloading V2.2 of the rules since they are better worded.


Gotcha. Found it, a bit confusing as the publisher was doing original uploads and I didn't recognize you as the designer (also the v2.2 file is name v2.1, which didn't help)

I definitely need to challenge the above statement - to validate my own sanity I've combed the rules, and the things I said were not in there? Not in there.

Water under the bridge and all that, but I almost want to write Stronghold Games a letter suggesting they actually provide nicely printed instruction replacements seeing as its almost unplayable with the ones in the box.

Still confused about the portable heat scanner and infections - more specifically how I could possibly successfully explain either to new players without making their brains hurt. That players can start handing around infection cards of other players colors if they don't have items to trade is ... gosh I just don't know how to tell people how to decode this. I'm surprised to see the Infected status being *entirely* the honor system, as only the host will have a card indicating conclusively what his status is.


Don't feel bad. My copy of Panic Station is probably going to end up in my scrap heap after attempting to play it for the first time last night. Given time I'm sure I could figure it out and present it to the group but the rulebook is the worst I've seen in recent memory and I'm not sure if bringing it to the table again will receive a positive reaction after how painful the first time was. We play some relatively complicated games but I just don't see the payoff with this one. The Resistance seems to provide fun 'paranoia gameplay' without the barrier to entry that Panic Station has.
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David Ausloos
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Gosh, this is always painful to read.
May I stress out to download V2.2 of the rules from the files section.
Those make a world of a difference.
Sure, PS has somewhat of a steeper learning curve than The Ressistance (thought I refuse to call the game complex).
But...play it a few times and you will see one major advantage: unlike The ressistance, Panic spawns a totaly different scenario with each play thanks to the open ended nature of the system. After 120+ plays I still encounter narrative I have not yet seen before. The replayability of the game is well above average.

So my golden advice is: read V2.2 and take time to explain the system from those. The problem with games with hidden information is that you must make sure your group knows all the rules before starting the game, because each questions while playing can give their identity away.
That said, allow a group to play it 2-3 times and you will see that with each play the gameplay becomes smoother and as players begin to grasp the tactical possibilities of each character the system begins to blossoms and spawn some tense scenarios straight out of a SF thriller.
 
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Andrew Martin
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Thanks for the reply. I realize the game is your baby and all, but honestly...there is a reason why people say 'you never get a second chance to make a first impression'. At this point I'm not not really upset about the cost (I only paid about $20...so pretty cheap IMO for a game) but what DOES upset me is that I'm usually pretty good about vetting games and I'm really disappointed with myself for letting this one reach the table. Luckily a break for dinner and then moving to another game afterwards salvaged the evening.

IMO There are just too many other more elegant games to play right now. From my recent purchases alone: The Resistance, Chaos in the Old World, Ascending Empires...King of Tokyo. My friends want to play those...not a game that I pretty much lost the entire table trying to explain (something I have a lot of experience with...I'm told I normally explain things well).


In any case good luck with your future designs. I'll certainly be on the lookout for Panic Station 2 if it streamlines things a bit.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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After reading v2.2 I'm quite optimistic this is going to be a hoot. My enthusiasm for the game is restored, and I have everything I need to know to play it.

And I think its going to be awesome.


...but really the version in the box is either beyond, or very very close to beyond, excuse

Thanks for all your help David.
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Dean Gardiner
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That issue of the infected status being on the honor system is a problem. I can deal with the forced trades and two characters who share items regardless of physical proximity...but the lack of ability to clearly and objectively identify who is infected and who is not...it kind of kills the game.
 
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Nevin Steindam
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I'm ok with my games having some element of an honor system. For example, almost every time we need to count up points at the end of a game, we all just count up our own and announce them. Anyone who was willing to lie could "win" every time.

This is the same thing. In game, I'm going to be as deceitful as necessary, but I'll follow the game's rules exactly. There is no reason I would want to insist I wasn't infected when I really was, any more than I'd mark a deck of cards or peek in a Werewolf game.

Admittedly, this can cause some confusion for new players, if they honestly aren't sure whether they've been infected. And I suppose that if there were any thoughts of Panic Station tournament play, then this would need to be dealt with. But for most gaming, I'd refuse to play with anyone who honestly couldn't be trusted to tell the truth about something like that.
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Jay Lacson
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AMartin56 wrote:
Don't feel bad. My copy of Panic Station is probably going to end up in my scrap heap after attempting to play it for the first time last night....The Resistance seems to provide fun 'paranoia gameplay' without the barrier to entry that Panic Station has.
ausloosd wrote:
Gosh, this is always painful to read.


It's not even my game, but I feel bad about it too. However, tastes differ and sometimes vastly. As AMartin56 has said, he would rather play Resistance than Panic Station, if given a choice. I'm of the other opinion. I abhor The Resistance. I think it's an insipid game of deduction and would rather skip playing entirely than sit through another game.

People have varying tastes and though the criticism will never cease to sting, there should be some comfort that there are probably more people enjoying the game than disliking it.
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Wynand Louw
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We have now played three games and it is a blast! I believe the game achieves what it sets out to do: Create a compelling narrative.

Congratulations, David. I love it!
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David Ausloos
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gardinerdean wrote:
That issue of the infected status being on the honor system is a problem. I can deal with the forced trades and two characters who share items regardless of physical proximity...but the lack of ability to clearly and objectively identify who is infected and who is not...it kind of kills the game.


Actually, the hands of players are almost always a perfect translation of their current idenity:

A player missing an infection card: he is infected
A player holding an infection card of the blue player: the blue player is infected.

Just two examples to show you there are traces towards the identity of players all over the place. It just takes a bit of very basic logic.
 
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Danger Mike
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You are correct. I immediately noticed that nowhere in the rules does it say "If you draw the Host card, you are now infected. Don't tell anyone. Try to infect the other players."
Its extremely confusing, and unplayable unless you are an experienced gamer and make some educated guesses.
 
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