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Subject: Eclipse no longer a "Thematic Game"? rss

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Remy Gibson
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Pretty sure that yesterday, Eclipse was the #2 Thematic Game; today it appears not to be listed there at all as it climbs into the top 40 overall. Anybody know how this happens?
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Philipp Schneider
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Seems like someone moved it from Thematic games to Strategy games^^
It's still #14 there though, not bad for a new game with elativly few votes yet
 
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Timo Hohkala
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I'm pretty sure it was in the strategy section also before being removed from the "thematic".

Was wondering it too.
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Antti Autio
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See the discussion following this comment.

It has been in the Strategy Games category (where it belongs, IMO) the whole time, but at some point it had sufficiently high number of votes in the Thematic category as well to be listed in both.

Now there are a lot more votes and the difference in favour of Strategy Games is large enough (over 25 % perhaps?) to make it the only category.

There's also a possibility that a change was made in the system to make this margin narrower, so that more games would list in just a single category. So two categories would need to have a fairly even number of votes (maybe even within 10 % or so?) for the game to be listed in two categories.

EDIT: Nope, this explanation doesn't float.. Twilight Imperium is still in two categories (Thematic and Strategy) with a very narrow margin of about 7 %, but so is Twilight Struggle (Strategy and War) with ~17 % and 7 wonders (Strategy and Family) with 27 %. Go figure.

The difference for eclipse is 33 %, which would make it likely that the treshold is 1/3 of votes.

Or, in other words: if a single category has more than 2x the number of votes than the second highest, the game will only be listed in that category.
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Jack Sparrrrow
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It depends of your votes so you know how to do.
 
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Peter O
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This calls for a "My Little Pony" style campaign to drive Eclipse back to its rightful place in Family games!


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Simon Kamber
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I think it fits better in there. Most of the game seems geared towards strategy over theme.
 
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Jack Sparrrrow
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Eclipse fits both. Fe Twilight Imperium is still in two. It's necessary to show that this is not dry strategy but something else. Games can be listed in both categories.
 
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MartZ Player
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Since we can only select one category, that means that some of us must vote for Thematic while others must vote for Strategy in similar proportions to keep the game appearing in both categories?

 
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Joel Eddy
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This system needs changing imho. To what I'm not sure.
 
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Simon Kamber
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Arrr2D2 wrote:
Eclipse fits both. Fe Twilight Imperium is still in two. It's necessary to show that this is not dry strategy but something else. Games can be listed in both categories.


I think Eclipse is much less 'something else' than TI is.
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Jack Sparrrrow
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Perhaps but still is! What is definition of Thematic category on BGG?

Quote:
Thematic Games contain a strong theme which drives the overall game experience, creating a dramatic story ("narrative"). Some well-known examples are Battlestar Galactica, Twilight Imperium and War of the Ring.

This type of game often features player to player direct conflict (with the chance of elimination), dice rolling, and plastic miniatures.

A Thematic Game is usually created around its main dramatic theme, which its rules and mechanics aim to depict. This is contrasted with Strategy Games, also known as "Eurogames." Eurogames tend to be built around an elegant set of mechanics, with a more general theme (e.g. Power Grid or Agricola).

Thematic Games are sometimes called Experience Games or "Ameritrash" games (meaning "American-style boardgames"). The latter name can be controversial, but is generally embraced by long-time lovers of this genre and not considered derogatory.


It's all about Eclipse. Don't say it don't fit here. Eclipse is modern ameritrash game with some euromechanichs (and of course is designed in Europe). In my opinion Eclipse fits Thematic much better than Strategy. Let's read definition of Strategy:

Quote:
A strategy game is a game in which the players' decision-making skills have a high significance in determining the outcome. Strategy games often require decision tree analysis, or probabilistic estimation in the case of games with chance elements. Strategy games include abstract games, with artificial rules and little or no theme, and simulations (including wargames), with rules designed to emulate and reproduce a real or fictional scenario.


Howerer I think it fits both.
 
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gyros p
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I think Eclipse is not a thematic game. Printing some space-pictures on hexes and providing some spaceship-minis does not make a game thematic.

If you call Eclipse thematic you can also call chess thematic.
"Oh my lord, our brave peasants protected the queen while the king flet cowardly to the towers with his cavalary."

Eclipse tells no story during the game. There is barely any text in the game and the flavour text in the rules does not count in my opinion. Eclipse is a great game, but it's not thematic .
 
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Charlie Theel
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What makes Twilight Imperium a much more thematic game than Eclipse?

I don't recall flavor text or tons of theme coming from Twilight Imperium cards/events. Each race gets a blurb on their sheet and some special rules. I'm still just buying plastic ships and moving about (usually towards Mecatol Rex).

The stories created by TI3 play are pretty much the same thing as the stories created by Eclipse, although more drawn out.
 
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Joel Eddy
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gyrosp wrote:

Eclipse tells no story during the game.


This is not true. It tells one million stories per game, and that's just in my imagination. Multiple that by the number of players per game, give or take...
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Jack Sparrrrow
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Rules in Eclipse are usually deeply thematic justified. Differences between species even deeper. It tells epic story about beating aliens, exploring galaxy and fighting enemy empires.
You can play Chaos in the Old World as red ones against green ones. Maybe designers of Eclipse not described whole universe and left for players some ways to use imagination, but it still is deeply thematic.
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eekamouse wrote:
gyrosp wrote:

Eclipse tells no story during the game.


This is not true. It tells one million stories per game, and that's just in my imagination. Multiple that by the number of players per game, give or take...

Like I said before:
gyrosp wrote:

If you call Eclipse thematic you can also call chess thematic.
"Oh my lord, our brave peasants protected the queen while the king flet cowardly to the towers with his cavalary."

I admire your imagination but with this argument Chess is a thematic game as well.

 
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Jack Sparrrrow
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Without imagination Twilight Imperium is about cardboard chips and plastic figures too... Tell me what do difference. I don't find anything. Game with smooth mechanics and transparent rules can't be thematic? Got I it?
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Joel Eddy
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gyrosp wrote:

I admire your imagination but with this argument Chess is a thematic game as well.



Chess no? Caylus? You bet!

Said this before regarding Caylus... but here you go...

Hiring subcontractors, manipulating trade buildings/neighborhoods, and bribing politicians/municipal persons... all the while trying to impress the corrupt nobility and aristocracy may not be historically backed up in the time period for Caylus, but I can see it easily having happened. I find it very thematic, and the fact that most do not find it thematic has always troubled me greatly.

I find the fact that it has not been thought of as thematic as somewhat suspicious to be quite honest.
 
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Eric Pietrocupo
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Quote:
Probably a tactical move by WotR fans to vote the game out of that subdomain!


How can we vote to put eclipse back?

Second, what is the definition of a thematic game? Is it a game with a license, or is it a game that put a strong focus on the theme?

Eclipse would fit for the 2nd reason but not for the first.
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Agent J
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In chess, pieces move based on a predefined set of moves, whereas ships in Eclipse move based on what engines you've put in them, and are built with materials. Chess isn't very thematic in that way, while Eclipse is.

You seem to get lost in the world of Eclipse, they're not pieces, they're spaceships, with characteristics that you helped build. You aren't laying down hexes, you're exploring the galaxy. You're not building 3 VPs, you're building a monument of your civilization. You're not collecting VPs for conflict, you're building the military reputation of honor or terror for your civilization.

The wonderful thing about it is the stuff that I want to do not only is fun, but it helps me win, without having to then somehow transfer to VPs. If I conquer a large section of territory, I get more VPs. If I research a ton of technologies, I get more VPs. If I battle, I get more VPs, but only until a point, and then I have to actually win the battles to gain the territory for more VPs. If I build great monoliths, I gain more VPs.

Even better, the actions all carry costs with them, as does the size of your civilization, which makes sense! No matter what I do, I invested at least some money into it, and maybe research and materials on top of that, depending what it was.

So where is the theme lost?
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Jack Sparrrrow
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larienna wrote:
How can we vote to put eclipse back?

Second, what is the definition of a thematic game? Is it a game with a license, or is it a game that put a strong focus on the theme?

Eclipse would fit for the 2nd reason but not for the first.


You can vote at game mainpage. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/72125/eclipse
There is poll about sub-domain in Information section.

I posted definition earlier in this topic. It's closer to 2nd so don't worry.
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gyros p
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Arrr2D2 wrote:
Without imagination Twilight Imperium is about cardboard chips and plastic figures too... Tell me what do difference. I don't find anything. Game with smooth mechanics and transparent rules can't be thematic? Got I it?

Sorry but I don't know Twilight Imperium, so I can't say anything about it.

I think Eclipse is more a mechanic than a theme. You could easly replace the setting by printing other pictures on the hexes and the tech-tiles and of course replace the minis. You could make an earth based civ-game, a steam punk setting or a pirate setting. The game would stay the same. You could not do that with a strong thematic game like Battle Star Galactica or Arkham Horror...
 
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Jythier wrote:
In chess, pieces move based on a predefined set of moves, whereas ships in Eclipse move based on what engines you've put in them, and are built with materials. Chess isn't very thematic in that way, while Eclipse is.

You seem to get lost in the world of Eclipse, they're not pieces, they're spaceships, with characteristics that you helped build. You aren't laying down hexes, you're exploring the galaxy. You're not building 3 VPs, you're building a monument of your civilization. You're not collecting VPs for conflict, you're building the military reputation of honor or terror for your civilization.

The wonderful thing about it is the stuff that I want to do not only is fun, but it helps me win, without having to then somehow transfer to VPs. If I conquer a large section of territory, I get more VPs. If I research a ton of technologies, I get more VPs. If I battle, I get more VPs, but only until a point, and then I have to actually win the battles to gain the territory for more VPs. If I build great monoliths, I gain more VPs.

Even better, the actions all carry costs with them, as does the size of your civilization, which makes sense! No matter what I do, I invested at least some money into it, and maybe research and materials on top of that, depending what it was.

So where is the theme lost?


I think the point is that one can enjoy the game. I can enjoy it and you can enjoy it. Actually it's pointless that I call it themeless and you call it themed ... but damn, I admire your imagination .
 
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Joel Eddy
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gyrosp wrote:

I think Eclipse is more a mechanic than a theme. You could easly replace the setting by printing other pictures on the hexes and the tech-tiles and of course replace the minis. You could make an earth based civ-game, a steam punk setting or a pirate setting. The game would stay the same. You could not do that with a strong thematic game like Battle Star Galactica or Arkham Horror...


Oh yes you could!

Easily. Battlestar you could make it a Cold War spy game on a submarine. Hunt for the Red Octocylon! Arkham you could make it based in WW2 Germany and your team is trying assassinate Hitler and some of SS commanders.
 
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