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Subject: Two questions on a threeway battle rss

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Wim van Gruisen
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I guess that I know the answers - it's just the simplest explanation of the rules. But that explanation is sometimes not intuitive.

Can a ship pin up to five other ships ?
My answer: yes, as long as the other ships are of different colour.
According to the rules, X ships are pinned if there are X opponents' ships in the same hex. That means, if I have an interceptor in a hex and an opponent flies in with one ship, my interceptor pins him. Now another opponent flies in with two ships, and both of them get pinned (since he faces two enemy ships). A third opponent flies in with four ships (suppose he can do that) and all of them get pinned. And so on. So my single ship is pinning ships of all three opponents.

It seems a bit strange that a ship can pin more than one other ship, as long as they are of different opponents, but not if they are of the same opponent.

Can a ship use missiles several times in the combat phase?
My answer: yes, as long as he fires them at ships of different opponents.
Missiles can only be fired at the start of a battle. But when more than one opponent flies into the same hex, the big battle is divided into several one-to-one battles.

Makes for a great rules simplification, but the implication is that a ship can fire his missiles several times during a battle - just not at the same enemy.
 
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stu ma
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The first question is a good one! I don't have an answer although I assume you're right.

As for the second I think I remember having read that missles are only used once per combat phase and in this case only against the first opponent you're fighting against.
 
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Hannu Sinisalo
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The rules (page 20) say that missiles are used once in every battle. Thus, you get to fire your missiles once against all opponents, I think. A combat phase consists of possibly multiple battles, even in one hex.

Any damage your ship gets will remain until the end of all battles since the damage cubes are removed only in the end of the combat phase.
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Jeremy Diachuk
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Yes, those answers are correct.

Ships are pinned based on how many enemy ships are in the hex, regardless of who owns those ships. It's not really your ship pinning five others, it's your ship pinning one, and another opponent's ship pinning the other.

However, for example, if you have three ships in a hex, and an opponent has one, then two of your ships are not pinned. If a third player moves one ship into the hex, then you have one ship not pinned (since one is pinned by the first opponent and another is pinned by the second opponent), but you can still freely move the third ship. In addition, even if you move away, your opponents still need to move at least two other ships into the hex before they can move through it themselves - if your first opponent brought in two other ships, they would also be pinned, since you have two ships there and the third player has one as well, meaning he needs three ships there before he's locked down all of his opponents, allowing his ships freedom to move. This does make thematic sense, since if any number of your ships try to escape the hex, then each can be matched (or tractor beamed?) by a single opposing ship each, and vice-versa.

As far as missiles go, it's true that they can fire again in the same combat phase if they're against multiple opponents. It's also true that they can fire again in another round of combat. It's just that they only fire at the start of a combat. The missile-launching phase is repeated for each combat in a hex, this is true. This does make thematic sense as well. The missiles are not necessarily limited by quantity. Perhaps their weapon power is strong enough that they cannot be used at close range, so they must be launched prior to the skirmish lest they damage their own ships. When two players engage on each other, they have time to fire missiles before closing in. After that, another player arrives (or, rather, the winning player manages to get closer to the player who was already there or was defending) so there's time again to fire missiles before they engage.

This does give me an idea, though, to make missiles simultaneously better and worse: After the missile phase, you still roll dice for missiles (which you do before cannonfire). The opponent simultaneously rolls a yellow die for each orange die you roll for missiles in the regular combat. On each hit (6) he rolls (modified by the computers of one ship type he has in the hex of his choice, representing the computers' tactical ability to move through the combat to give the missile-launching ships the worst possible shots), he may assign one of the orange dice you rolled to any of your ships instead of you assigning it yourself.

This does give more power to missiles (you can stay and fight if you want to or have to), but it makes them likely to damage your own ships in fights where they can't retreat, heh.
 
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Agent J
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Why not make a HR where the missile ships of the defender fire every turn into the first fray and can assign any hits to any of the opponents ships?
 
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Marco Chiappa
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In my opinion 1st example is wrong...
Player A have 1 ship in a sector
Player B move through that sector and he have to pin 1 ship
Player C move through the same sector and now he have to pin 2 ships cause of the 2 other enemy ships (A * B) and so on...


Battles are resolved always in a 1 Vs 1 way.. so if my ships with cannon survive a battle they will shot again on the next battle against a different player.
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Steve W
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Whymme wrote:

Makes for a great rules simplification, but the implication is that a ship can fire his missiles several times during a battle - just not at the same enemy.


This bit I find I can rationalize by thinking of them as separate battles with a large amount of time in between. Either the ships have missiles that can be reloaded after the battle, or you can imagine there are missile resupply ships that can get them rearmed before they have to face the next fleet.

Works for me, anyways .
 
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Jason Tesser
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Regarding the missiles I think the way the rule book explains it is battles.

1. Within the combat phase you can have many "battles"
2. Hexes are resolved in number order Highest first
3. The battle contains all the ships of the 2 players in that hex fighting at one time.
4. Within each hex only 2 players are engaged in a battle at a time. Then each surviving player fights the next in the reverse of of entering the hex. At the beginning of each of these battles is when missiles fire.

So the key is once per battle missiles fire. This is at least my understanding of the rules.
 
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Wim van Gruisen
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MrThud wrote:
Whymme wrote:

Makes for a great rules simplification, but the implication is that a ship can fire his missiles several times during a battle - just not at the same enemy.


This bit I find I can rationalize by thinking of them as separate battles with a large amount of time in between. Either the ships have missiles that can be reloaded after the battle, or you can imagine there are missile resupply ships that can get them rearmed before they have to face the next fleet.

Works for me, anyways .

Yeah. I like how courteous all these aliens are. "Errm, Sir, I hope you don't mind, but now that you have slaughtered those moss monsters, we,d like to begin with our duel. But please reload your weapons first - it would be unsportsmanlike if we'd attack before you are ready."
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Steve W
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Whymme wrote:
Yeah. I like how courteous all these aliens are. "Errm, Sir, I hope you don't mind, but now that you have slaughtered those moss monsters, we,d like to begin with our duel. But please reload your weapons first - it would be unsportsmanlike if we'd attack before you are ready."


The span of a hex is very large and the distance between wormholes is immense. Is it really that unlikely that the distance between belligerents are staggered enough that the fights are going to happen sequentially?
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Regarding pinning, it is pretty simple.
Your ships are pinned unless you have more ships than all opponents combined. There's no benefit in establishing who is pinning whom because it doesn't make any difference.
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Wim van Gruisen
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MrThud wrote:
Whymme wrote:
Yeah. I like how courteous all these aliens are. "Errm, Sir, I hope you don't mind, but now that you have slaughtered those moss monsters, we,d like to begin with our duel. But please reload your weapons first - it would be unsportsmanlike if we'd attack before you are ready."


The span of a hex is very large and the distance between wormholes is immense. Is it really that unlikely that the distance between belligerents are staggered enough that the fights are going to happen sequentially?

Hey, it was a joke.

But if you want to analyse this seriously, please explain why, when two or more parties enter an already occupied hex, they always meet in reverse order of entering, even if one party comes in from the north and the other from the south.
Yes, I find it unlikely that this happens every single time. That never once one of the people coming in meets the residents before they meet the other entrants. Or that, if A comes in from the north, then B from the south, then C from the south, then D from the north, that C and D meet each other first, even though two enormous battle fleets have come in before them and so have to be between C and D.


I'm happy with just shrugging and saying: "It doesn't all have to be realistic or explained away. The rules are simple and easy to play; striving for realism would just have complicated things." And then have a bit of fun with the inconsistencies coming from a great, but streamlined, ruleset.
 
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Wim van Gruisen
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MasterDinadan wrote:
Regarding pinning, it is pretty simple.
Your ships are pinned unless you have more ships than all opponents combined. There's no benefit in establishing who is pinning whom because it doesn't make any difference.

I love to explain that to newbies.
"No, you cannot move any further. Your ship is pinned because of that one ship in the hex."
"So that other ship is pinning me?"
"I didn't say that."
"But if not that other ship, who is pinning me?"
"That is not important."
"Of course it's important!"
"No, it isn't. Trust me."

"OK, something else then. That dreadnought over there, that is ready to attack my home system - can I pin him by sending over an interceptor?"
"That doesn't matter. That dreadnought can be pinned, but I'm not telling who is going to pin it."
"Why not?"
"There's no benefit in establishing who will be pinning the dreadnought."
"It's important if I want to keep my homeworld!"
"No, it doesn't make any difference."


No, sorry, I don't think that that will fly. If something is pinned, then something else is doing the pinning. And it should be clear what that is.
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Steve W
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Whymme wrote:
But if you want to analyse this seriously, please explain why, when two or more parties enter an already occupied hex, they always meet in reverse order of entering, even if one party comes in from the north and the other from the south.


Oh, I don't think the order that you land up fighting is really easily explained. I think that it's pretty easy to come up with a decent reason why fights happen sequentially and why you'd have time to reload between battles, though.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Whymme wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
Regarding pinning, it is pretty simple.
Your ships are pinned unless you have more ships than all opponents combined. There's no benefit in establishing who is pinning whom because it doesn't make any difference.

I love to explain that to newbies.
"No, you cannot move any further. Your ship is pinned because of that one ship in the hex."
"So that other ship is pinning me?"
"I didn't say that."
"But if not that other ship, who is pinning me?"
"That is not important."
"Of course it's important!"
"No, it isn't. Trust me."

"OK, something else then. That dreadnought over there, that is ready to attack my home system - can I pin him by sending over an interceptor?"
"That doesn't matter. That dreadnought can be pinned, but I'm not telling who is going to pin it."
"Why not?"
"There's no benefit in establishing who will be pinning the dreadnought."
"It's important if I want to keep my homeworld!"
"No, it doesn't make any difference."


No, sorry, I don't think that that will fly. If something is pinned, then something else is doing the pinning. And it should be clear what that is.


My point is that if the new player asks what is pinning his ships, you can simply respond that his ship is pinned because there are the same number or more enemy ships in the sector. This helps him understand how pinning works. I'm not suggesting you should evade the question entirely and be intentionally difficult
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Wim van Gruisen
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MasterDinadan wrote:
[q="Whymme"][q="MasterDinadan"]My point is that if the new player asks what is pinning his ships, you can simply respond that his ship is pinned because there are the same number or more enemy ships in the sector.

But that is quite passive. A player should not only know what is happening to him, but also how he can make things happen to others. In this case, how he can pin other ships with his own.
 
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Tom Henderson
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Whymme wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
[q="Whymme"][q="MasterDinadan"]My point is that if the new player asks what is pinning his ships, you can simply respond that his ship is pinned because there are the same number or more enemy ships in the sector.

But that is quite passive. A player should not only know what is happening to him, but also how he can make things happen to others. In this case, how he can pin other ships with his own.


But if you tell them that they can pin THAT Dread by moving in a interceptor then you would be misleading them. Sure if they move in a interceptor the dread may be pinned but it may not depending on what their opponent builds or moves. The truth is you CANNOT pin specific ships.
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Wim van Gruisen
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tommh wrote:
But if you tell them that they can pin THAT Dread by moving in a interceptor then you would be misleading them. Sure if they move in a interceptor the dread may be pinned but it may not depending on what their opponent builds or moves. The truth is you CANNOT pin specific ships.

Good thing that I won't say such a thing, then. My posts shouldn't have given the impression that this is something that I would say.
My posts should be seen as a continuation of my first post; one ship can pin ships of up to five opponents at the same time. No specific ships, no - but in a three- or moreway battle, it is important that people understand the mechanics of the game. That one shouldn't think something like: "Well, the blue ships are already pinning the red ships, and the red ones are pinning the blue ones, so none of them can spend the energy to pin my yellow ships as well."
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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But it's not immediately intuitive with that explanation why you can pin ships of five different opponents, but can't pin 5 ships of the same opponent.
You also are not pinning the enemy ships in any sense, because all 5 of them would be pinned regardless of whether you were there or not. You really are not even contributing to them being pinned.

Ships are pinned unless you have the most ships of all players in the system. It's short and simple and anyone intelligent should be able to grasp the consequences of 3+ players in a system.
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Antti Autio
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MasterDinadan wrote:
But it's not immediately intuitive with that explanation why you can pin ships of five different opponents, but can't pin 5 ships of the same opponent.
You also are not pinning the enemy ships in any sense, because all 5 of them would be pinned regardless of whether you were there or not. You really are not even contributing to them being pinned.

Ships are pinned unless you have the most ships of all players in the system. It's short and simple and anyone intelligent should be able to grasp the consequences of 3+ players in a system.

Yeah, that's right. I don't get what this "one ship can pin five" is supposed to be about, since it's simply not true. No specific ship is doing the pinning, just the numbers are important. Any ship that is not yours in a hex will require one of your ships to stay in that hex. Why try to make it sound any more complicated than it is by playing with semantics?
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Jeremy Diachuk
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MasterDinadan wrote:
But it's not immediately intuitive with that explanation why you can pin ships of five different opponents, but can't pin 5 ships of the same opponent.
You also are not pinning the enemy ships in any sense, because all 5 of them would be pinned regardless of whether you were there or not. You really are not even contributing to them being pinned.

Ships are pinned unless you have the most ships of all players in the system. It's short and simple and anyone intelligent should be able to grasp the consequences of 3+ players in a system.


Easy. Don't describe it as an active thing: your ship isn't actively pinning five ships.

It's just that in the case of five opponents, each opponent has more opposing ships in the hex than they have ships in the hex, so they are unable to move out of that hex (they are pinned).
In the case of one opponent, that opponent does not have more opposing ships in the hex than they have ships in the hex, so they are able to move out of that hex (they are not pinned).

The "Am I pinned?" onus is on the player who wants to move their ships, not on the player who wants to stop another player from moving any ships. If you want to stop someone from getting through, you'll have to think from their perspective: "how many of my ships would have to be present so that the number of opposing ships for my opponent would be the same or greater than the number of ships my opponent has in the hex?"

Honestly, it's never been a problem describing it to my friends who are learning the game, even if I want to throw in a smidge of strategy advice so they can see what the pinning system really allows: "A ship can't move out of a hex if it's pinned. Each enemy ship in the hex pins one of your ships. But if you have more ships in the hex than opposing ships, you can move any of your ships out of it as long as you leave one ship in for each opposing ship. So if you want to pin someone in a hex, it might be useful to bring extra ships, since otherwise they can add more ships to the hex and their dreadnought can escape, for example."
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Wim van Gruisen
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MasterDinadan wrote:
Ships are pinned unless you have the most ships of all players in the system. It's short and simple [...]
[...] and wrong. Ships are pinned unless you have more ships in that system than all the other players together.
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Cameron McKenzie
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Whymme wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
Ships are pinned unless you have the most ships of all players in the system. It's short and simple [...]
[...] and wrong. Ships are pinned unless you have more ships in that system than all the other players together.


Yeah, I shouldn't try answering rules questions when I've had a few. whistle
I definitely understand the rule, I just struggled with the words
 
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