Recommend
15 
 Thumb up
 Hide
32 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Commands & Colors: Ancients Expansion Pack #6 – The Spartan Army» Forums » General

Subject: Medium Hoplites Notes rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A friend and I broke in my new copy of the Sparta expansion with a couple match plays of the first new scenarios: Hysiae and Thyreatis. Both feature the new Medium Hoplite blocks and the rules for them.

The Medium Hoplites are troops which can also take advantage of being ordered via the Move Mounted and Mounted Charge Cards. They receive the +1 combat die bonus for Mounted Charge, too. Considering that the scenarios which feature these troops have little or no Mounted units, this keeps those cards a big part of the game while giving a bit of an edge to hoplite troops.

Heavy units are perhaps rarer than mounted units in the new scenarios, too. For this reason, the Order Heavy Troops card has less utility than we're used to seeing. You would think that this would also affect the Rally card, since Heavy is the third symbol-type that you could roll. But in practice, not really since I can never roll the symbols I need anyway! laugh

Overall, with so very few Mounted and Heavy units, this may make for a slightly scrummier game with units lasting a little longer than normal. Still, there are chances to roll five or more dice in close combat and so keeps the occasional unit annihilation an outside possibility.

With the Spartan Medium Hoplites, we see Foot units with five blocks. And through the Special Rules of the Thyreatis scenario, they could have as many as six! (They are something else to see in that one, too. Imagine a six-block Foot unit in bronze with a Leader!)

There are three sets of Medium Hoplite blocks in this expansion. There are the Bronze blocks for the Spartans, the Blue blocks for use with the Greek army from Expansion #1, and Orange blocks for the Allied Medium Hoplites (allied to Sparta, usually). They all feature the standard blue triangle associated with Medium units with no other signifier of the their Hoplite status.

I found the absence of such a signifier and the plethora of hoplon-pictured blocks to be a little confusing at first. And there are many scenarios—such as the first, Hysiae—that feature blocks for both Medium Hoplites (for the Argives) and plain Medium Foot (for Sparta, ironically). For these reasons, I'm considering adding a symbol or feature to the Hoplite blocks and reference cards (inking the blue triangle to make it black, for example)to remind my opponent and I of their special status.

Medium Foot have an expanded role in the game, thanks to the Hoplite rules. Foot units overall feature more prominently. Heavy units are de-emphasized. These changes represent an interesting and subtle twist to the game to recreate hoplite warfare.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Lowry
United States
Sunnyvale
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, I was looking at them and wishing they had come up with a way to make the hoplites easier to distinguish. Rotating the triangle, a different outline color, or maybe a horse symbol in the upper left corner to remind you they can be ordered with mounted unit cards. soblue
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't see the need. Did you feel the same with the Marian/Julian rule? In the scenarios where that rule applied, you knew that ALL mediums/heavies from that army could move like auxilia and/or throw pilum.

In this case, ALL mediums from that army move with Mounted cards too. I think a new symbol would mess things up. I'm sure the rule will become clearer after a few plays of these scenarios.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In all honesty, I do re-read the Marian/Julian rules every time I play a scenario that uses them. I always screw it up one way or the other if I don't.

The River Centrites scenario does have a mix of Medium Foot, Warriors, and Medium Hoplites in each army. (And as near as I can tell, it's the only one that does, true.) The Hoplite Rule only applies to armies that have Medium Hoplites and only to the Medium Hoplite units.



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Lowry
United States
Sunnyvale
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
franchi wrote:
In this case, ALL mediums from that army move with Mounted cards too. I think a new symbol would mess things up. I'm sure the rule will become clearer after a few plays of these scenarios.

No... there's hoplite blocks, and there's regular medium blocks. The regular mediums don't move on mounted cards, and remembering which is which is the issue.

...Though looking through the scenarios, I see that apparently Mediums and Medium Hoplites never appear in the same army, which I hadn't realized. Which makes me wonder, why bother? I'm actually one of the people who's happy about having three colors of Romans, but I have to consider this a block too far. (And can we really know that there will never be a scenario that doesn't feature M and MH in the same army?)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BradyLS wrote:
The River Centrites scenario does have a mix of Medium Foot, Warriors, and Medium Hoplites in each army. (And as near as I can tell, it's the only one that does, true.)

If the lastest file I saw was the good one, River Centrites has hoplites-only mediums for the Spartan army, and no hoplites for the persians (BTW, I recommend using Carthaginian or Barbarian blocks for one of the tribes).

The way this rule has been introduced, each Greek army is hoplite-like or not, so their mediums are all hoplites or not. It may be a simplification, but it makes gameplay easier, as we are already used to with this game!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You're right. The Spartan Hoplites are surrounded by Persians with Medium Infantry and Warriors on both sides of the river. My mistake for not looking more closely.

...So once you determine from the scenario map and special rules whether your army has Medium Hoplites or not, you could really use which ever block you happen to pull out, Medium Foot (not Warrior) and/or Medium Hoplite?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I guess so! But I don't know if they have added both types of medium Greeks in such numbers so that in some scenarios you have to use the MH art, for example, when the hoplite rule is in effect.

I would say you use the art that you like the most! Or even mix them both, if you don't bother. Going through the sheets that have been uploaded here, I don't see a "pattern" that distinguishes one type from the other in the two Greek armies (MH lighter, or in a characteristic pose, for example)...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
BrentS
Australia
Sydney
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BradyLS wrote:


The Medium Hoplites are troops which can also take advantage of being ordered via the Move Mounted and Mounted Charge Cards. They receive the +1 combat die bonus for Mounted Charge, too. Considering that the scenarios which feature these troops have little or no Mounted units, this keeps those cards a big part of the game while giving a bit of an edge to hoplite troops.



I must admit I'm a bit surprised by this.

I haven't received my copy yet. Is there a rationalisation in the rules (or that anyone can deduce) for ordering relatively immobile hoplite phalanxes with Mounted order cards?

Brent.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
goshublue wrote:
I haven't received my copy yet. Is there a rationalisation in the rules (or that anyone can deduce) for ordering relatively immobile hoplite phalanxes with Mounted order cards?

Brent, I asked this same question and suggested that a small note explaining it would be welcome, but the rules came out as this. My interpretation is that these armies have very little mounted troops, and would become relatively harder to use than their mounted counterparts with the actual deck.

On the other hand, they have chosen to represent all hoplites as mediums, so that heavies are left for the more closed Macedonian-type phalanxes. Allowing players to order them with a bit more cards than usual gives a rather good compromise to create an "hybrid" troop class in between standard mediums and heavies, without actually creating a new troop class!

So game-wise it is a quite good solution. But I don't think there is any relation between the Mounted character of these extra cards and the hoplites, they could have used the Order Heavies cards as extras as well. Nevertheless, the Mounted Charge bonus gives them an extra "shock" value, which they had in many of the battles.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dave Briggs
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
franchi wrote:

So game-wise it is a quite good solution. But I don't think there is any relation between the Mounted character of these extra cards and the hoplites, they could have used the Order Heavies cards as extras as well. Nevertheless, the Mounted Charge bonus gives them an extra "shock" value, which they had in many of the battles.


Exactly what I was thinking.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
BrentS
Australia
Sydney
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
franchi wrote:
goshublue wrote:
I haven't received my copy yet. Is there a rationalisation in the rules (or that anyone can deduce) for ordering relatively immobile hoplite phalanxes with Mounted order cards?

Brent, I asked this same question and suggested that a small note explaining it would be welcome, but the rules came out as this. My interpretation is that these armies have very little mounted troops, and would become relatively harder to use than their mounted counterparts with the actual deck.


Thanks, Miguel. I was hoping that it wasn't just for purely mechanical reasons. That's unusual for this game and a little bit disappointing. So much is elegantly and thematically streamlined into the rules......and I'm usually the first to justify the logic of the game's abstractions....but this jars a bit. I am really looking forward to getting it on the table, though, and seeing how it plays out.

Brent.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chuck Meeks
United States
Bellevue
Nebraska
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Someone else was having trouble differentiating units but it was in C&C Napoleonics. I came up with a solution using little sticker shapes that would fit on edges of the blocks and available at stores like Staples. Here is a link to the discussion:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/6317238#6317238

I remembered these from my military days when I was making maps for all kinds of fun missions!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robin Reeve
Switzerland
St-Légier
Vaud
flag msg tools
badge
Looking for a game session in Switzerland? Send me a pm!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rindis wrote:
No... there's hoplite blocks, and there's regular medium blocks. The regular mediums don't move on mounted cards, and remembering which is which is the issue.

...Though looking through the scenarios, I see that apparently Mediums and Medium Hoplites never appear in the same army, which I hadn't realized. Which makes me wonder, why bother? I'm actually one of the people who's happy about having three colors of Romans, but I have to consider this a block too far. (And can we really know that there will never be a scenario that doesn't feature M and MH in the same army?)

I was wondering how I would differentiate MI from HM (except from using a magnifying glass to distinguish the sticker graphics one from the other)...
Your observation made things clear : thank you !
Now, if MI and HM are never together in the same army, why create different blocs?
Simply stating that MI units are hoplites would have been much more simple (and could be compared to declaring that Roman MI and HI are Marian/Julian Legions)...

Komodo wrote:
Someone else was having trouble differentiating units but it was in C&C Napoleonics. I came up with a solution using little sticker shapes that would fit on edges of the blocks and available at stores like Staples.
I am about to use a "silver" permanent felt pen to draw a little mark on the top of the Hoplite blocks (no need for the bronze ones, however).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robin wrote:
Now, if MI and HM are never together in the same army, why create different blocs?

...

I am about to use a "silver" permanent felt pen to draw a little mark on the top of the Hoplite blocks (no need for the bronze ones, however).

I've heard that Richard dislikes creating Epic scenarios where you need to mix different armies, sometimes to the point of fielding smaller armies if that means only one color will be needed. So I guess that adding all these Greeks may be twofold, first for the aesthetics, but mainly to have enough of these troops for Epic scenarios.

I wouldn't "mark" them if I were you!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robin Reeve
Switzerland
St-Légier
Vaud
flag msg tools
badge
Looking for a game session in Switzerland? Send me a pm!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
franchi wrote:
I wouldn't "mark" them if I were you!
In a sense, they are already marked by different sticker graphics, aren't they?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Guido Gloor
Switzerland
Ostermundigen
Bern
flag msg tools
The statement below is false.
badge
The statement above is correct.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I was thinking about marking them at the bottom of the blocks. But I also like my blocks pristine and took great care to center the stickers.

I'd have preferred a separate symbol either way...

Speaking of C&C:A, where's the next expansion?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Boersma
Australia
Clyde North
Victoria
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Is there another expansion after this one?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
France
Caen
(from Valencia, Spain)
flag msg tools
designer
My latest game: Big*Bang, a simple abstract about the first minutes of the Universe
badge
My best-rated game: TETRARCHIA, about the tetrarchy that saved Rome
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Richard is taking questions (and asnwering some of them) in this thread:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/744394/bgg-wargame-desig...

He answered to one of mine saying that taking CCA to the extremes, early (Biblical) or late (Byzantines), would need different decks and too many changes, and that GMT is thinking about making a new version of C&C for those two periods.

Which is very good news, but I think it means that "big box expansions" for CCA should not be expected. Maybe scenarios in C3i, or another set of Epic scenarios... but I don't think new armies will see the light, all are relatively well covered now. Taking into account that I had heard those same rumours after Exp#5, I think we should all be happy with this new second Greek army!

I think I would skip a Biblical game, but definitely pre-order a Byzantine one!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Phil Garland
United States
Charlotte
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Dukes we despise, Kings we cannot be, Gamers are we!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
franchi wrote:
I think I would skip a Biblical game, but definitely pre-order a Byzantine one!


While I would jump at the chance for an Ancient Near Eastern/Biblical pack!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robin Reeve
Switzerland
St-Légier
Vaud
flag msg tools
badge
Looking for a game session in Switzerland? Send me a pm!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
OneTinSoldier wrote:
While I would jump at the chance for an Ancient Near Eastern/Biblical pack!
Ditto - which would not exclude my buying a Byzantine era one too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Strattanville
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ARABS and TURKS AND BYZANTINES!!!!!!!!!! OOO MY!!!

Not to mention Venetians..... Goths...........and HUNS!!!!!!!


Count me in to a Byzantine Era CC that would be SWEEEEEEEEET!!!!!cool


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
StevenE Smooth Sailing...
United States
Torrance
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well now that this thread is totally off track.... whistle

How about:
China
Japan
India
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Robin Reeve
Switzerland
St-Légier
Vaud
flag msg tools
badge
Looking for a game session in Switzerland? Send me a pm!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
StevenE wrote:
Well now that this thread is totally off track.... whistle

How about:
China
Japan
India
I would purchase such a product.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Robin wrote:
StevenE wrote:
Well now that this thread is totally off track.... whistle

How about:
China
Japan
India
I would purchase such a product.


In the Wargame Designer of the Month thread that Franchi mentions above, Richard said that he is working with Zvezda on a Sumurai battles game that will feature Commands & Colors-style mechanics. It's supposed to be out sometime this summer. Check out the thread to learn more!
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.