Carl Garber
Canada
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Hi all! I just played a game of Cities & Knights last night and was interested to see where it ranked in the BGG rankings. When I went to the game page I realized that since it was an expansion it didn't qualify. Now, I understand you need the original Settler Hexagons to play this game, but as far as strategy and gameplay go there is a large gap between Cities and Settlers. To me these are two very different games.

Now I know there are different opinions on this whole expansion business, but in light of the TTR games (along with other series I imagine) should Cities & Knights be considered a game in the BGG rankings? I think the gap between Cities and Settlers as far as gameplay is concerned is larger than the TTRs. It seems it is simply the lack of a board that keeps Cities out. Is that component lack enough to keep it off?

I would like to see all you opinions. If someone could make a poll that would also be helpful(I haven't learnt how yet).

When answering keep in mind that this is not about whether family of games should have separate entries but rather that, in light of the inclusion of others, should Cities be included to?

Happy Gaming! And I look forward to reading your responses

Edit: Poll

Poll
1. In light of Dominion: Intrigue, the various TTR's, as well as other games that are included in the BGG ranking system, do you think Cities & Knights should be likewise entered as a game in the BGG ranking system?
Yes
No
2. Should Expansions/Sequels be in the BGG ranking database?
Yes
No
3. Do you like the BGG ranking system as it is as it shows which games can be bought as stand alone games? or Do you wish it would rank gaming experiences (ie. include expansions such as High Bohn, Cities and Knights, Carcassonne expansion, Alhambra expansion)?
I like it how it is
I wish all possible gaming experiences were included
I wish all possible gaming experiences were included but grouped together (ie. all TTRs under one heading).
      7 answers
Poll created by CarlG
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Franziska
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Re: Should Cities & Knights be considered as a boardgame in the BGG rankings?
I think as long as you need another game (the base set hexagons + cards + tokens) to play it I think it is an expansion. If it came with all the bits to play it straight out of the box, like the TTR you mentioned it's a different thing.
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Brad Miller
United States
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Re: Should Cities & Knights be considered as a boardgame in the BGG rankings?
If I buy Cities and Knights, can I play it? Nope.

Therefore, expansion...
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CHAPEL
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Re: Should Cities & Knights be considered as a boardgame in the BGG rankings?
It's an expansion, albeit an extensive expansion. But it's still the base game with more rules piled on top of it. IMHO is is where it's belong.
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Patrick
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Re: Should Cities & Knights be considered as a boardgame in the BGG rankings?
No, I think the guidelines work well now that it is an expansion if it doesn't stand alone. The difference is clear and useful. (Dominion: Intrigue being the exception that proves the rule...)

However, I am often interested in how an expansion stacks up as well. Just look at the raw numbers at the entry of the expansion and scan down the Top 100, 200, whatever, and mentally insert the game for a rough comparison.

Its average is a 7.54 with over 7200 rankings. Scanning down the Top 100 puts it 67 to 76 range, just about even with original Settlers at 77 . I know the actual Bayesian math could skew it a couple spots, but that's good enough for me to see the BGG community ranks the expansion about the same as the base, maybe a bit higher. I'd rate the difference as greater, but everyone else--not so much. I love the Cities and Knights expansion and think it has stayed fresh far beyond base Settlers.
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Rich Shipley
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Baltimore
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Re: Should Cities & Knights be considered as a boardgame in the BGG rankings?
The BGG database tries to do a couple things at once and it isn't always consistent. One thing it does is catalogue things you can buy. Another thing it does is allow rating how much you like playing a game.

For Settlers, you would need to buy two boxes to play Cities and Knights, so it isn't ranked here as a game. But a set of miniatures rules that require you to buy or make additional pieces to play can be ranked. And a deluxe version of a game that plays exactly the same as the original (or includes expansions) can be ranked as a separate game. Also public domain games that require generic cards or other items are ranked.

I know it is impossible to devise a perfect system for something like this, but I can also understand why someone might be confused about why it works this way.
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Carl Garber
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Re: Should Cities & Knights be considered as a boardgame in the BGG rankings?
Good comments! I personally use the BGG ranking system to find good gaming experiences. Since Cities and Knights is a different gaming experience than Settlers I wish there was a way to see this without simply knowing it exists. I mean it would be fairly easy to show in the rankings if a game is stand alone or not(even by something as simple as an asterix). I am curious if there are any other games like this one where an expansion greatly changes the boardgame experience, that might make it worthy to play. I enjoy both Settlers and Cities but I have friends that can't stand Settlers but enjoy Cities.
 
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Eric Brosius
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Re: Should Cities & Knights be considered as a boardgame in the BGG rankings?
There is a strong tendency for expansions to be rated much higher than base games, because of a selection effect: People who don't enjoy the base game aren't likely to try the expansion. Hence, the people who would have rated an expansion low don't rate it.

If the expansions weren't sorted out, the top of the ratings would have a lot of expansions, and this would make it harder for new people who come to BGG to get ideas about how to enter the hobby (you don't want to point them to expansions they can't play without buying something else first.)

If you already enjoy a game, like Settlers, you can go to the game page and see what expansions and other items related to the game are available.
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Pater Absurdus
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Re: Should Cities & Knights be considered as a boardgame in the BGG rankings?
The check box below the emoticons allows you to create polls...
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Matt Riddle
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Re: Should Cities & Knights be considered as a boardgame in the BGG rankings?
JonJacob wrote:
Even though I don't think it should have it's own ranking I think there is a better argument to be made for it then for Dominion Intrigue simply because the game does play so drastically differently with Cities and Knights whereas Dominion Intrigue is practically the same game. Same can be said for numerous TTR's and several other games.
this is true. its an expansion vs sequel thing.
 
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