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Subject: Why not assign dice before you roll? rss

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Cole Wehrle
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Hey everyone,

My group and I have been playing the hell outa this game. It's simply wonderful! Anywho, the other night I caught a rule mistake that we had been making. For whatever reason we had been assigning attack dice to ships before we rolled (in order to obtain a concrete "to hit" number). According to the rules, one assigns damage after the dice are rolled, with shields/computers in mind so that the rolls are always assigned for maximum impact.

I wondered a little bit at the reasoning here. Is this supposed to expedite play or does it represent something about combat in the Eclipse universe? The group tends to think that the added choice and uncertainty really fit within the game and we're not yet convinced the official rules would be worth adopting.
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Jack Sparrrrow
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You are rolling dice for one type of ships at the same time, so dice are assigned to definite ships with definite computers. You can later assign hits to enemy ships. You can't predict number of hits and whole system is designed to roll as much dice as possible. In your variant you sometimes have to roll a lot of single dice... It's boring.
 
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Maciej Welc
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Arrr2D2 wrote:
You are rolling dice for one type of ships at the same time, so dice are assigned to definite ships with definite computers. You can later assign hits to enemy ships. You can't predict number of hits and whole system is designed to roll as much dice as possible. In your variant you sometimes have to roll a lot of single dice... It's boring.

One type of your ships can shoot many types of opponent's ships. Each with different shields. Assigning after the roll is may allows you to convert misses to hits.
Our group assigns dice before rolling them.
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Jack Sparrrrow
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And it must last ages, especially with different cannons on one type of ship and whole fleets on both sides.
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Cole Wehrle
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Arrr2D2 wrote:
And it must last ages, especially with different cannons on one type of ship and whole fleets on both sides.


Hardly. Having played it both ways now I can state definitively that has almost no noticeable impact on playtime.

That being said, combats do tend to go a round or two further, which helps mitigate the power of missiles.
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Dmitry Vensko
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Once I thought it as assigning before roll. Strange it's not so. (Do not have the game yet)
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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How could it not take forever? If you're rolling four dice, you have to roll them one at a time, saying "This first die will try to hit your Dreadnought" and so on.

If you group them all up, saying "These four dice will try to hit your Dreadnought" you're just making yourself weaker, since then if all four hit and the Dreadnought dies in three hits, you've wasted one die roll. And if you want to have three dice aim for the Dreadnought and one for the Cruiser, you'd have to specify beforehand, then roll three for the Dreadnought and one for the Cruiser. It just seems clunky.

Assigning them after you roll makes it much smoother, even if it's slightly less thematic (you can aim them after you determine whether they would be a hit? A bit odd, yes, but these are superlarge conflicts and our dicerolling is meant to be an abstraction anyway).
 
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Timo Hohkala
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There are pros and cons either way.

It's also a ship designing factor. Putting that shield to the interceptor is a good choice as to not give the enemy any "free hits".
 
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Maciej Welc
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
Arrr2D2 wrote:
And it must last ages, especially with different cannons on one type of ship and whole fleets on both sides.


Hardly.

Hardly indeed. If you do it wise it doesn't take long.

Rolling dice one by one is not wise and usualy unnecessary.

We use dice coulour rather for ship type being shooting rather than cannon type it uses. With circa about 10 ships to shoot it takes usualy 2-3 rolls per round.
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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How, exactly, are you playing the "assign the dice before you roll them" in a way that doesn't require multiple rolls for each ship type you have in a battle, assuming you will be rolling more than one die (eg you have multiple ships and/or multiple cannons) when the opponents have multiple ship types?

Or do you just say "I'm aiming for your {shiptype}" and roll all the dice, not being allowed to assign them to any other ship type? This way would, indeed, take no more rolls than the regular way. I'm not sure if I'd like playing this way, since then I would gain an easy upper hand by attacking with two ship types at once against you using only one type of ship, since then you can't possibly kill my entire fleet in one round no matter how many hits you would roll...

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Cole Wehrle
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taggedjc wrote:
How could it not take forever? If you're rolling four dice, you have to roll them one at a time, saying "This first die will try to hit your Dreadnought" and so on.

If you group them all up, saying "These four dice will try to hit your Dreadnought" you're just making yourself weaker, since then if all four hit and the Dreadnought dies in three hits, you've wasted one die roll. And if you want to have three dice aim for the Dreadnought and one for the Cruiser, you'd have to specify beforehand, then roll three for the Dreadnought and one for the Cruiser. It just seems clunky.

Assigning them after you roll makes it much smoother, even if it's slightly less thematic (you can aim them after you determine whether they would be a hit? A bit odd, yes, but these are superlarge conflicts and our dicerolling is meant to be an abstraction anyway).


We assign all dice before rolling for a particular initiative stage. Very rarely are single dice rolled, except in small engagements.
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Maciej Welc
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
We assign all dice before rolling for a particular initiative stage. Very rarely are single dice rolled, except in small engagements.

I guess we're following the same schema.
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Jeremy Diachuk
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
taggedjc wrote:
How could it not take forever? If you're rolling four dice, you have to roll them one at a time, saying "This first die will try to hit your Dreadnought" and so on.

If you group them all up, saying "These four dice will try to hit your Dreadnought" you're just making yourself weaker, since then if all four hit and the Dreadnought dies in three hits, you've wasted one die roll. And if you want to have three dice aim for the Dreadnought and one for the Cruiser, you'd have to specify beforehand, then roll three for the Dreadnought and one for the Cruiser. It just seems clunky.

Assigning them after you roll makes it much smoother, even if it's slightly less thematic (you can aim them after you determine whether they would be a hit? A bit odd, yes, but these are superlarge conflicts and our dicerolling is meant to be an abstraction anyway).


We assign all dice before rolling for a particular initiative stage. Very rarely are single dice rolled, except in small engagements.



So, do you just say "three dice will target your dreadnought, one will target your interceptor" and then roll four dice and choose which three target the dreadnought and which leftover targets the interceptor?

Or do you say "three dice will target your dreadnought, one will target your interceptor" and then roll three dice for the dreadnought, apply damage, and then roll another one die for the targeted interceptor?

Or do you just say "I'm targeting your dreadnought" and roll all four dice (and have no choice to split up the targeting)?

Or do you say "three dice will target your dreadnought" and then roll the dice and then apply the damage and then say "the last die will target..." and can put any ship here, including the dreadnought you've already fired at, and then roll the last die?

You're not being very clear about how you're actually playing it, as all of these variations are a "way" to assign dice before rolling, and each has significant implications (and in half the cases turns out in multiple die rolls).
 
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Cole Wehrle
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taggedjc wrote:
Cole Wehrle wrote:
taggedjc wrote:
How could it not take forever? If you're rolling four dice, you have to roll them one at a time, saying "This first die will try to hit your Dreadnought" and so on.

If you group them all up, saying "These four dice will try to hit your Dreadnought" you're just making yourself weaker, since then if all four hit and the Dreadnought dies in three hits, you've wasted one die roll. And if you want to have three dice aim for the Dreadnought and one for the Cruiser, you'd have to specify beforehand, then roll three for the Dreadnought and one for the Cruiser. It just seems clunky.

Assigning them after you roll makes it much smoother, even if it's slightly less thematic (you can aim them after you determine whether they would be a hit? A bit odd, yes, but these are superlarge conflicts and our dicerolling is meant to be an abstraction anyway).


We assign all dice before rolling for a particular initiative stage. Very rarely are single dice rolled, except in small engagements.



So, do you just say "three dice will target your dreadnought, one will target your interceptor" and then roll four dice and choose which three target the dreadnought and which leftover targets the interceptor?

Or do you say "three dice will target your dreadnought, one will target your interceptor" and then roll three dice for the dreadnought, apply damage, and then roll another one die for the targeted interceptor?

Or do you just say "I'm targeting your dreadnought" and roll all four dice (and have no choice to split up the targeting)?

Or do you say "three dice will target your dreadnought" and then roll the dice and then apply the damage and then say "the last die will target..." and can put any ship here, including the dreadnought you've already fired at, and then roll the last die?

You're not being very clear about how you're actually playing it, as all of these variations are a "way" to assign dice before rolling, and each has significant implications (and in half the cases turns out in multiple die rolls).


At each initiative step all dice at that step are assigned to their targets. All shots are then rolled after all have been assigned and hits are applied. You then move to the next initiative step. I think that's what I said the first time but I can further clarify if you need it.
 
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Chuckhazard
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I think the misunderstanding here is how you keep the dice separate. If you have two yellow dice, and each goes to a different target, how do you know which dice is for which target? You'd have to roll them in different spaces on the board, or roll them one after another. This is why it sounds like there would be many more dice rolls.
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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chuckhazard wrote:
I think the misunderstanding here is how you keep the dice separate. If you have two yellow dice, and each goes to a different target, how do you know which dice is for which target? You'd have to roll them in different spaces on the board, or roll them one after another. This is why it sounds like there would be many more dice rolls.


This.

If you are rolling multiple dice, how do you deal with targeting different enemy ships before you do the roll, without also necessitating multiple rolls (which is still the case if you just roll in two separate areas on the table)?

Or do you write little numbers in the corner of each die so that you can say "dice 1 to 3 are targeting the dreadnought, and die 4 is targeting the cruisers" and then see the number next to the pips ?

Also, if there are multiple enemy ships of the same type, do you assign the damage as you choose after rolling between those ships, or do you have to even specify which ship of that ship type each die is targeting? This is important if a ship dies in 3 hits (eg it has one Improved Hull) and you're rolling three dice while one ship has 2 hits on it and another has none. If you roll three hits, it'd be more advantageous to assign all the hits to the unharmed ship, but if only two hits are dealt, it would be best to destroy the damaged ship.

You keep saying that you just "assign all dice to their targets and then roll dice and apply the damage" but I'd like a more step-by-step description of the entire processes, since I can't see it being anything but more time-consuming without adding much strategic depth since the only ways to avoid multiple dice rolls give a lot of strength to the opponent in combat (so you will destroy less ships whenever you roll), making combat last longer anyway and causing more overall dice rolls as it is. These two factors make me shy away from any pre-roll targeting solution.
 
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