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Subject: Roma B playing additional leaders rss

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Frank Otte
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If you build part 2 or 3 respectively, of the Rome wonder side B, and are therefore granted an immediate additional play of a leader, are you allowed to use him as a wonderpart or "sell" him, like you could, when you play a leader in a regular recruit phase? Or must this leader be played "as a leader"?
 
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brian
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Hermjard wrote:
If you build part 2 or 3 respectively, of the Rome wonder side B, and are therefore granted an immediate additional play of a leader, are you allowed to use him as a wonderpart or "sell" him, like you could, when you play a leader in a regular recruit phase? Or must this leader be played "as a leader"?

The rules say "put in play." I understand this to mean that he must be played as a leader for the reduced cost. It does not seem this grants you the option of discarding it for 3 coin of for Level 2 to be used to build Level 3.
 
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Ernie Lai
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the rules also say that leaders can "be played in 3 ways": recruit, build wonder, discard for coins. i've always played that you could do any of the 3.

(edit)
though i can see an argument for only allowing recruiting, the "by paying 2 coins less than its printed cost" text in the rules might seem to suggest that.

my reasoning for allowing all 3 is that i thought it should behave similarly to hanging gardens b.
 
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Frank Otte
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Hmm. but what about an analogy to Olympia 2A und Halikarnassos 2A and 1-3B, which clearly forbids to use the free card as wonderpart?

Not that I tend to support any interpretation, just to play the advocatus diaboli. I see the points for both meanings. Maybe an official statement would be good here.

This would also solve the same question for Catan 1B and the leader Salomon.

 
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Frank Otte
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A follow up question suddenly arose to me, when I overthought the problem again: assuming, you CAN play one of the additional immediate leaders as wonderparts, does that count as separate "cardround", meaning, you can use all your resources again, buy resources from your neighbours again etc. like it is handled with the seventh card in Babylon 2B?

Again, this question is also valid for Catan and Solomon, for the case that this is allowed.

 
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brian
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laiernie wrote:
the rules also say that leaders can "be played in 3 ways": recruit, build wonder, discard for coins. i've always played that you could do any of the 3.

(edit)
though i can see an argument for only allowing recruiting, the "by paying 2 coins less than its printed cost" text in the rules might seem to suggest that.

my reasoning for allowing all 3 is that i thought it should behave similarly to hanging gardens b.

Yeah, the edit you posted in why I believe Roma to be specific to bringing the leader in direct, not just playing it as a normal card.
 
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brian
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Hermjard wrote:
Hmm. but what about an analogy to Olympia 2A und Halikarnassos 2A and 1-3B, which clearly forbids to use the free card as wonderpart?

Not that I tend to support any interpretation, just to play the advocatus diaboli. I see the points for both meanings. Maybe an official statement would be good here.

This would also solve the same question for Catan 1B and the leader Salomon.


I think Olympia is a good parallel. Olympia 2A shows an actual card face with the building costs crossed out. the rules say you build a card for free. You wouldn't use this to build a wonder (as it is not a card) and you wouldn't discard for money (since that is already "free").

Roma 2B/3B shows a similar icon in that you are getting the leader face showing resource requirements. This tells me it is more than a generic leader card like 1B shows.

And Halicarnassus is completely different just showing that you get that card from the discard but being specific in the rules that you get to build it for free. "Building" is one of the specific ways to use your action. So if you get to "build" it, you are taking Action 2A, not any of the other 2 actions.
 
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brian
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Hermjard wrote:
A follow up question suddenly arose to me, when I overthought the problem again: assuming, you CAN play one of the additional immediate leaders as wonderparts, does that count as separate "cardround", meaning, you can use all your resources again, buy resources from your neighbours again etc. like it is handled with the seventh card in Babylon 2B?

Again, this question is also valid for Catan and Solomon, for the case that this is allowed.


See this is more support for why I don't think you can. You are immediately putting it into play and paying 2 less for it. No resources are being used so you are not buying anything from your neighbors. You either have the money or you don't use it now.

Again Solomon has a completely different icon that you are building an item for free so need no resources. I think now you are overthinking it.
 
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Frank Otte
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Well, even if you _should_ be right, the open follow up question isn't settled completely: imagine the following: I build Rome 2B in a card round, which I start with NO money at all. But in that _same_ cardround I get money by commerce. Am I allowed to use _that_ new money, to finance my additional leader? You know, the round isn't over yet, and you are NOT allowed to spend money on the same turn you got it?

 
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Frank Otte
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And regarding Solomon, I don't think, that I am overthinking it. Note the following: you get THREE advantages (not one!) by Solomon:

1. The chance to _get_ an _additional_ age-card apart from your hand.
2. The possibility to ignore costs of _this_ age-card.
3. The _opportunity_ to _play_ _this_ additional age-card (by any of the three ways "table", "wonder", "sell")

These are separate advantages. I see no reason in the rules, why I cannot use the advantages (1) and (3) and omit (2), thus using this card as part of my wonder.
 
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Ernie Lai
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i'm now leaning towards the interpretation that you can only use the leader for recruiting, and i'll be playing that way from now on.

the rule book seems to use "play" in regards to leader cards to mean any of the 3 actions, but then uses the phrase "put into play" synonymously with "recruit". since rome b says put a leader into play and not play a leader card, i think it only means recruit.

my opinion is you can't use money you gained this turn to pay for the extra leader. i'm also leaning towards counting the 7th card of an age as the same turn as the 6th card.

i'd also welcome official rulings.
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brian
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Hermjard wrote:
And regarding Solomon, I don't think, that I am overthinking it. Note the following: you get THREE advantages (not one!) by Solomon:

1. The chance to _get_ an _additional_ age-card apart from your hand.
2. The possibility to ignore costs of _this_ age-card.
3. The _opportunity_ to _play_ _this_ additional age-card (by any of the three ways "table", "wonder", "sell")

These are separate advantages. I see no reason in the rules, why I cannot use the advantages (1) and (3) and omit (2), thus using this card as part of my wonder.

_Well_ _I_ _really_ _don't_ _know_ _what_ _you_ _are_ _saying_ _with_ _all_ _the_ _underscores_.

I don't see this as 3 distinct advantages. You choose a discard and put it into play. Period. You don't get to use the three Build options. It dictates to you to BUILD it. Read the symbols from the base game rules.
 
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brian
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laiernie wrote:

my opinion is you can't use money you gained this turn to pay for the extra leader.

I would disagree with this, I think. You cannot use resources or money gained this turn for the things you build this turn, that is true. But what you are building is the Wonder. The wonder then grants you the ability to put a leader into play. I would say at this point, the money you collected this turn is also available.

There is no rule that says you can't use money on the same turn you get it. the rule is you must have the money you spend on a resource at the beginning of the turn. Again, you don't get money from your neighbors, it comes from your own stock. So I don't see where the rules prevent paying for this from money gained this turn.

Quote:
i'm also leaning towards counting the 7th card of an age as the same turn as the 6th card.

What is this in regards to? There is no 7th turn, you just play 2 cards during turn 6.
 
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Ernie Lai
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
laiernie wrote:

my opinion is you can't use money you gained this turn to pay for the extra leader.

I would disagree with this, I think. You cannot use resources or money gained this turn for the things you build this turn, that is true. But what you are building is the Wonder. The wonder then grants you the ability to put a leader into play. I would say at this point, the money you collected this turn is also available.

There is no rule that says you can't use money on the same turn you get it. the rule is you must have the money you spend on a resource at the beginning of the turn. Again, you don't get money from your neighbors, it comes from your own stock. So I don't see where the rules prevent paying for this from money gained this turn.

Quote:
i'm also leaning towards counting the 7th card of an age as the same turn as the 6th card.

What is this in regards to? There is no 7th turn, you just play 2 cards during turn 6.


if the 7th card is part of the same turn, you can't spend money for it that you didn't have at the start of the 6th turn, and you also can't buy the same resources from a neighbor that you bought for your 6th card, if they "ran out".

if building a wonder stage that then grants this power makes it not part of this turn, then you would be able to use money gained this turn to buy card 7 (and the resource limits would reset??)
 
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Frank Otte
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You must have the money you spend on anything at the beginning of your turn. The completion of a part of a wonder doesn't initiate a new turn. So it's still the same turn. So you cannot spend money, which you got the same turn from your neighbours, for anything what the wonder does, whatever it is.

If the restriction of money spending would only affect resources (or age cards in general), you could do the following in the recruit phase: play a leader for which you have not the money, hoping that your neighbors use their leader to build a part of the wonder and doing commerce with you for that, then taking your new money to pay your own leader. Because this is not possible, the spending restriction must be valid for everything you do.
 
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brian
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Hermjard wrote:
You must have the money you spend on anything at the beginning of your turn. The completion of a part of a wonder doesn't initiate a new turn. So it's still the same turn. So you cannot spend money, which you got the same turn from your neighbours, for anything what the wonder does, whatever it is.

Where does it say this? My rules say RESOURCES not ANYTHING. And I believe Roma specifically allows you to spend money on it; it is a benefit of the Wonder.

Leaders are special in that they aren't built during the round of normal play. They also don't use resources so there is nothing you are pulling from your neighbors. Using Roma is an exception to the rules because it is allowing you to recruit a leader during a round instead of before it. Leaders aren't subject to the same rules as building cards as they aren't used in the same way.
 
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brian
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There are 3 ways to "play" a card:
a) Build/Recruit/"Put into Play(?)"
b) Wonder Stage
c) Discard for 3-coin

There are 3 symbols that deal with free or extra cards, with some variations.

1) "Once per age, a player can construct a building from his or her hand for free." [Image: Front of card, with Resources blocked out] This is the symbol on Olympia 2A. Variations appear on Maecenas and Ramses. This is very specific to Action A above - you must build the card for itself. You cannot discard it, you cannot use it for your Wonder. You cannot pay to get the resources to build it. It is free.

2) "The player can play the last card of each age instead of discarding
it. This card can be played by paying its cost, discarded to gain 3 coins or used in the construction of his or her Wonder." [Image: 2 card backs with green check marks] This is the symbol on Babylon 2B. This is not specifying any one Action and instead highlights the use of all 3 Actions. There is no 7th turn so you just play 2 cards in round 6. However, resources should reset. Otherwise you are blocking yourself out of the resources you produce as well. And while most people typically have all they need to build 1 card, most won't have enough to build 2 at the same time. The builds aren't simultaneous as the rules clarify you can build Stage 2 as your 6th card thus granting you the ability immediately afterward and playing the 7th card. And if your resources reset for this build, your ability to buy them should reset as well. Otherwise, this ability is too nerfed.

3) "The player can look at all cards discarded since the beginning of the game, pick one and build it for free." [Image: discard with Front of card, with Resources blocked out] This is on Halicarnassus 2A, and 1-3B. Also appears on Solomon. This is like the first symbol in that you must Build it using Action A from above. You do not get to use it for your Wonder nor can you use it to gain 3-Coin. You do not pay the resource cost. You pick it up and you build it for free. The only difference between this and the first symbol is where the card comes from - it is not in your hand, you choose it among all discards.
 
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Frank Otte
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Well, if leaders and their playing stages are so special (which is written nowhere) and the money spending restriction affects only the buying of resources from your neighbors, then the following would be possible: you could play the tree farm, clay pit etc., the sawmill, the foundry etc. with money you just got in the same turn? Sorry... I think, it's clear, that this is against the principle of simultaneity of the game.

Btw, if no hint is given, before thinking, that a game situation is "special", I think its a better idea, to assume, that a game situation is "general" and that the general rules are applicable.



 
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Frank Otte
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ColtsFan76 wrote:

Leaders are special in that they aren't built during the round of normal play. They also don't use resources so there is nothing you are pulling from your neighbors.


This is simply not true, if someone uses his leader, to build a part of a wonder, which is clearly allowed for the recruit phase. So why not also, under the same rules, for Rome?

The question is then, if the playing of leaders by Rome constitute a "separate extraordinary" turn, yes or no.

Ahh, I recall: Rome is special, and leaders and their playing stages are special, and wonders are special... and whatever else.
 
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Hermjard wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:

Leaders are special in that they aren't built during the round of normal play. They also don't use resources so there is nothing you are pulling from your neighbors.


This is simply not true, if someone uses his leader, to build a part of a wonder, which is clearly allowed for the recruit phase. So why not also, under the same rules, for Rome?

The question is then, if the playing of leaders by Rome constitute a "separate extraordinary" turn, yes or no.

Ahh, I recall: Rome is special, and leaders and their playing stages are special, and wonders are special... and whatever else.

We must be talking past each other. No leader is built during the general turn without using Roma. No leader is built using resources, not even Stevie Wonder. So what I said was true.

Wonders allow you to break rules, so they are by definition special.
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