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Neuroshima Hex! 3.0» Forums » Rules

Subject: who wrote these rules? - a few questions about unclear rules rss

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Nate Finch
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I have played a ton of games, and NH has one of the worst rules layouts I've seen. Not only that but there are things which are incredibly unclear in the rules. I think I know what the writer *meant*, but he totally doesn't say it.

Ok, so the rules about Moloch in team play say this:

"Moloch is a unique deck in the game. Its units hit and damage friendly units as usual, but Modules and the HQ give them bonuses. Moloch’s army can also use Modules and HQ bonuses from the allied army."

"Hit and damage friendly units as usual" ... in team play "as usual" means they *don't* hit and damage friendly units. But I'm pretty sure what the writers intended was for them *to* hit and damage friendly units. I assume this also means they don't shoot over their allies' heads.

"Modules and the HQ give them bonuses" .... uh, whose modules and HQ give them bonuses? I presume this means their allies' .... but that's already the default for team games.

"Moloch’s army can also use Modules and HQ bonuses from the allied army." Um... that's exactly what they already said... twice now.

Is there something I'm missing? Are allies *not* supposed to be able to use the other player's modules and HQ?

"The Final Battle: If any of the players draws his last tile from the pile, the others complete their own turns as usual, and only then does the Final Battle start."

In general, when something is capitalized, I presume it's a keyword that means something, so I looked around for what the Final Battle is.... it's not defined anywhere. I assume "Final Battle" means "the last battle phase of the game" and is not in anyway different, regardless of its status as a Capitalized Word.

Any help would be great. We really enjoyed the game, it was just really hard to figure out the rules from the rulebook.

-Nate
 
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J
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Nate Finch wrote:

"Hit and damage friendly units as usual" ... in team play "as usual" means they *don't* hit and damage friendly units. But I'm pretty sure what the writers intended was for them *to* hit and damage friendly units. I assume this also means they don't shoot over their allies' heads.


Yeah that could have been a lot clearer. When they say "as usual" they mean their units hit allied units by the "usual" melee and ranged attack rules (ie being next to a melee unit hitting you, being in the range of fire of a ranged unit). NOT that it is usual for teams to hit and attack their allies.

Quote:

"Modules and the HQ give them bonuses" .... uh, whose modules and HQ give them bonuses? I presume this means their allies' .... but that's already the default for team games.


They mean that Moloch's mods and HQ benefit their allies. To reiterate they basically are saying although Moloch units hit allied units while attacking they also support allied units who are jacked into Moloch mods or next to the Moloch HQ.

Quote:

"Moloch’s army can also use Modules and HQ bonuses from the allied army." Um... that's exactly what they already said... twice now.

Here they are clarifying that not only does Moloch assist their allies but their allies assist Moloch as well.

Quote:

Is there something I'm missing? Are allies *not* supposed to be able to use the other player's modules and HQ?

No no, You are correct. Allies *are* allowed to use each others mods. They are just trying to clarify that although Moloch does treat allied units as enemies with attacking they treat them like allies while assisting. It's not a long stretch for someone to hear that "Moloch Attacks allied units" and to mistakenly believe that Moloch doesn't assist allied units either.

Quote:

"The Final Battle: If any of the players draws his last tile from the pile, the others complete their own turns as usual, and only then does the Final Battle start."

In general, when something is capitalized, I presume it's a keyword that means something, so I looked around for what the Final Battle is.... it's not defined anywhere. I assume "Final Battle" means "the last battle phase of the game" and is not in anyway different, regardless of its status as a Capitalized Word.


-Nate


Assuming you have the English rules it's defined on page 3.
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I understood the rules the way you explained them. Never having tried the team variant myself, this sounds like a huge disadvantage for the team with Moloch on it's side. Am I missing something there?
 
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Peter Van den Broeck
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I learned the game on a games exhibition where it was perfecly explained to me. I then bought the game and I found it fairly easy to play. I was always able to find the answer in the book if there were uncertainties.

I also have downloaded the game (iPad) and then I found out that there were some slight changes in the way I played it and the way it was programmed. However, I haven't figured out yet if I misread the rules, or that they were changed in some way...

For instance:
- bases don't hurt eachother.
- the turn ends always after a battle. Even if it is the first tile you play, or even if it is because the field is full.
- I always thought that the playing field is larger with three or four players. In the ipad-game it has always the same "large-ness" (don't know the english word modest)

Indeed, I think rules can be a lot better, but for me they are ok.
 
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J
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airsonist wrote:
Never having tried the team variant myself, this sounds like a huge disadvantage for the team with Moloch on it's side. Am I missing something there?


Only more experience with Moloch. Moloch has fairly above average units with pretty much every unit a shooter, a multi-directional attacking Melee unit or a toughness. They are really good at getting a strong presence on the board because of it. Despite the fact it's HQ ability is probably the weakest of the starting 4 factions most experienced players will tell you that they are probably the best of the original 4 factions.

Moloch's "attack allies" was probably added as a balancer to keep Moloch from being able to blanket fire/attack the battle field in 2 v 2 (from the edges) and to force more intelligent playing from both Moloch and its partner.

Don't worry, in 2 v 2 Moloch does very well even though they attack allies. Neo Jungle is probably the worst ally in the game since they have a ton of trouble buffing allies and their entire game stye more or less falls apart with the presence of 2 extra players.

Phyriphiry wrote:
I also have downloaded the game (iPad) and then I found out that there were some slight changes in the way I played it and the way it was programmed. However, I haven't figured out yet if I misread the rules, or that they were changed in some way...


I assume your list is how the iPad plays it because everything you say there is correct. I only have access to the English rules (by which I mean I'm too stupid to be able to learn another language)so I'm not sure if it's consistent with other printings.

Phyriphiry wrote:

For instance:
- bases don't hurt eachother.

Page 5 under The HQ:
"Moreover, each HQ can hit all adjacent enemy units in a melee
attack with a Strength of 1. A HQ cannot attack another HQ, though."


Phyriphiry wrote:

- the turn ends always after a battle. Even if it is the first tile you play, or even if it is because the field is full.

Page 3 under Battles:
"The player who starts a Battle finishes his turn, regardless of
the number of tiles he has left. As soon as the Battle
commences, no other tiles can be used or even
discarded."

Phyriphiry wrote:
- I always thought that the playing field is larger with three or four players. In the ipad-game it has always the same "large-ness" (don't know the english word :modest:)

I think this is assumed by the rules not specifically saying that the size of the board is changed in 3/4 player (To be fair I was taught it this way too and played my first game 3p with the board too big). Further on page 9 it says:

"The board’s been changed. It has more hexes which you can use in your games. The main game consists of 19 hexes set in the middle of the board. It is exactly as in the previous edition. Around it you can find a circle of eighteen “red hexes” which we suggest to be used during scenarios. It also works great with five or even six players. It gives a bit of air on the battlefield."

Hence it is implied that you only use bigger boards for scenarios or really large player numbers. Never played with more than 4p myself.
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Nate Finch
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Thanks for the clarification. Funny that their attempt to clarify the rules is what was so confusing. If they'd just said "Moloch hits and damages its allies, even in team play" and just left it at that... it would have been far more clear, IMO.

Anyway, I get it. And the "definition" of Final Battle on page 3 wasn't clear to me that it was defining the Final Battle... but now that I know I'm not missing anything, I understand.

Thanks!

As for this being a disadvantage for Moloch, from the game we played where Moloch *wasn't* damaging his ally... the opposing team (my team) got their butts kicked. Moloch's large amount of ranged weapons was really hard to deal with, especially with two teams worth of Modules pumping them up.
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Chris D
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Moloch also have different units that deal damage on all fronts, if it didn't damage the ally's units, they would probably be too strong together (as Nate experienced). It surely forces Moloch's team to play differently than usual, though.

Also, for some reason I always overlooked the thing about ending the turn after starting the battle, weird. It makes sense too, since sometimes if not you have the opportunity to deal a nice amount of unopposed damage after a board wipe.

A clarification about that: "starting a battle" means either playing a "battle tile" or placing a tile that fills the board, right?
 
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