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Subject: Consolidation and Order Token questions rss

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Arthur Dickie
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1. Consolidate Power

We have been playing that you can place a Consolidate Power on any Area that you have a unit in (for one power token).

My question is, are we playing that correctly, or can these order tokens only be played on areas that already have a consolidation symbol? Can they be played on Sea Areas and Ports (for one power token)?

2. Cannot be played Tokens

A number of the Westeros phase cards disallow the use of certain types of order tokens. What with that and the limits on special orders, we found that it was not uncommon to find circumstances when you didn't have enough order tokens to place into areas with units. The rulebook says this will only happen "rarely". Have I misunderstood something (we have only played the 5 player game so far).

3. "Useless" Tokens

Can I play a token on an area even if it is perfectly clear that I could not make use of that order in the area? I'm thinking perhaps of a Raid token on a sea area where there is (for whatever reason) no opportunity to Raid.

This is a follow-on to question 2 where, towards the end of the game, we were struggling to find suitable orders to play on certain areas.

Thanks in anticipation of your assistance
 
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Moshe
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gnomus wrote:
1. Consolidate Power

We have been playing that you can place a Consolidate Power on any Area that you have a unit in (for one power token).

My question is, are we playing that correctly, or can these order tokens only be played on areas that already have a consolidation symbol? Can they be played on Sea Areas and Ports (for one power token)?

2. Cannot be played Tokens

A number of the Westeros phase cards disallow the use of certain types of order tokens. What with that and the limits on special orders, we found that it was not uncommon to find circumstances when you didn't have enough order tokens to place into areas with units. The rulebook says this will only happen "rarely". Have I misunderstood something (we have only played the 5 player game so far).

3. "Useless" Tokens

Can I play a token on an area even if it is perfectly clear that I could not make use of that order in the area? I'm thinking perhaps of a Raid token on a sea area where there is (for whatever reason) no opportunity to Raid.

This is a follow-on to question 2 where, towards the end of the game, we were struggling to find suitable orders to play on certain areas.

Thanks in anticipation of your assistance


1. You can play Consolidate Power on any area (except sea areas). The Consolidate Power symbol grants you an extra token (or 2 for King's Landing), but is not required to use the order.

2. You understood it correctly. It happens, though not too much.

3. You can absolutely do that, so long as you don't violate the rules (such as placing Consolidate Power order in a sea area).
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Georgios P.
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I think you've been playing correctly.

1. You place an order on every area that has one of your units in them. The symbols on the areas themselves aren't relevant at this phase of the turn.

2. Even if you cannot use special orders and one of the Westeros cards disallows one type of order, you should still have 8 orders left to place. If you do have more than 8 armies on board, that is more than eight areas with units in them, then you will run out of orders. I've only seen it happen once, when the player in the lead was banished to last place on the King's Court track.

3. Yes, that's perfectly fine.
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roftie
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Starkiller wrote:
1. You can play Consolidate Power on any area (except sea areas)...

2. You understood it correctly. It happens, though not too much.

3. You can absolutely do that, so long as you don't violate the rules (such as placing Consolidate Power order in a sea area).

This is true for 1st Ed, but 2nd Edition has changed this somewhat. According to the rules:

p. 12 wrote:
During this step, each player must place exactly one Order token facedown (i.e., secretly, his house insignia facing up) on each area he controls that contains at least one of his units (Footman, Knight, Ship, or Siege Engine).

p. 13 wrote:
Consolidate Power Orders placed on sea areas have no effect, but may still be placed.


This means that one must place orders even when it is impossible to carry them out according to the rules. There is even a whole section on how players have to place all their order tokens in player order (instead of simultaneously) when one of the players can not play enough order tokens for the areas he has units in (p. 12).

I assume this was introduced to prevent players from gaining foreknowledge of other players' orders in the planning phase when they could see that some units are not assigned orders.
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Arthur Dickie
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Thanks everyone for the super-fast replies.
 
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Moshe
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Makes sense, though the only real change is the possibility to place a Consolidate Power order in a sea area, all other orders are always legal (except when exceeding the special orders count). So only sea areas are changed, and even there it's pretty small.

What about placing, for example, a Raid order when these aren't allowed?
(Sea of Storms Westeros card, I believe..)
 
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Georgios P.
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Starkiller wrote:

What about placing, for example, a Raid order when these aren't allowed?
(Sea of Storms Westeros card, I believe..)


We've just removed them without consequence before resolving the regular orders. It's a waste of an order anyway, so if it was a mistake you're punished for having an unused army standing around.
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roftie
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Starkiller wrote:
What about placing, for example, a Raid order when these aren't allowed?
(Sea of Storms Westeros card, I believe..)

One can only place orders that are available to you for placing, i.e. 10 normal order tokens minus prohibited orders (e.g. all raid orders due to Sea of Storms card) plus any allowed star orders.
 
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roftie
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Joe Dizzy wrote:
We've just removed them without consequence before resolving the regular orders. It's a waste of an order anyway, so if it was a mistake you're punished for having an unused army standing around.

That is probably a more elegant solution, since being forced to place orders in player order is not that appealing (the planning phase is where most of the diplomacy takes place in games I've played, and being bound by player order would mess with the diplomacy).
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Rob Wisner
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roftie wrote:
Starkiller wrote:
1. You can play Consolidate Power on any area (except sea areas)...

2. You understood it correctly. It happens, though not too much.

3. You can absolutely do that, so long as you don't violate the rules (such as placing Consolidate Power order in a sea area).

This is true for 1st Ed, but 2nd Edition has changed this somewhat. According to the rules:

p. 12 wrote:
During this step, each player must place exactly one Order token facedown (i.e., secretly, his house insignia facing up) on each area he controls that contains at least one of his units (Footman, Knight, Ship, or Siege Engine).

p. 13 wrote:
Consolidate Power Orders placed on sea areas have no effect, but may still be placed.


This means that one must place orders even when it is impossible to carry them out according to the rules. There is even a whole section on how players have to place all their order tokens in player order (instead of simultaneously) when one of the players can not play enough order tokens for the areas he has units in (p. 12).

I assume this was introduced to prevent players from gaining foreknowledge of other players' orders in the planning phase when they could see that some units are not assigned orders.


I am not sure if I interpret the rule the same way. Let's say a player is last on the King's Court track and that no Raid orders are allowed during the planning phase. This means you can only use 8 order tokens since the 3 raids and the other 4 special orders cannot be used. If you have more than 8 territories with units you will have to have some with no assigned orders this turn. The rules also address this by saying that when this happens the orders should be assigned in turn order so that other players can plan appropriately knowing which territories will not have orders. I don't think the 2nd edition rule is allowing for placement of consolidate power orders in sea areas.
 
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Arthur Dickie
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masked_man wrote:
...I don't think the 2nd edition rule is allowing for placement of consolidate power orders in sea areas.


Rulebook, Page 13 wrote:
Consolidate Power Orders placed on sea areas have no effect, but may still be placed.
 
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Rob Wisner
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thanks!
 
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Travis Hall
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Joe Dizzy wrote:
Starkiller wrote:

What about placing, for example, a Raid order when these aren't allowed?
(Sea of Storms Westeros card, I believe..)


We've just removed them without consequence before resolving the regular orders. It's a waste of an order anyway, so if it was a mistake you're punished for having an unused army standing around.

Actually, sometimes that isn't a punishment. Sometimes, you are giving this player exactly what has motivated him to violate the rules. There are situations in which a player would rather play no order than a legally-playable order. (For example, a player may find that, after placing all the other orders he wishes to place, all he has left are Consolidate Power orders, the last area is vulnerable to raiding, and the player considers it important to ensure that an opponent does not gain a power token from raiding a Consolidate Power order.)

Edit: I should note that that example of why you may not want to play a legal order doesn't combine well with consideration of Sea of Storms, because that event would prevent the raiding that the player tries to avoid. However, the situation can arise without Sea of Storms in play.

Nobody has ever come up with a perfect method of dealing with misplayed orders for AGoT, but a substantial improvement can be gained through verification instead of punishment-as-deterrence. In the case of Sea of Storms, just have all players place their Raid orders face-up on the table as soon as the card comes up.
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roftie
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Wraith wrote:
There are situations in which a player would rather play no order than a legally-playable order. (For example, a player may find that, after placing all the other orders he wishes to place, all he has left are Consolidate Power orders, the last area is vulnerable to raiding, and the player considers it important to ensure that an opponent does not gain a power token from raiding a Consolidate Power order.)

Rulebook, p.12 wrote:
During this step, each player must place exactly one Order token facedown (i.e., secretly, his house insignia facing up) on each area he controls that contains at least one of his units (Footman, Knight, Ship, or Siege Engine).

This has changed in second edition. You can't opt to not place an order in an area with your units if you still have valid order tokens to place. Since some actions, like the one you described, are no longer possible, it is debatable whether this system is better than the one used in 1st edition. Both have their pros and cons.

Wraith wrote:
In the case of Sea of Storms, just have all players place their Raid orders face-up on the table as soon as the card comes up.

The Westeros phase is executed before the planning phase. You are suggesting that people place those forbidden order tokens face-up on the board, which would be exactly the same as leaving those areas empty of tokens, which in turn would mean preknowledge of others' orders.
 
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Radosław Michalak
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roftie wrote:
Wraith wrote:
In the case of Sea of Storms, just have all players place their Raid orders face-up on the table as soon as the card comes up.

The Westeros phase is executed before the planning phase. You are suggesting that people place those forbidden order tokens face-up on the board, which would be exactly the same as leaving those areas empty of tokens, which in turn would mean preknowledge of others' orders.

I think he was talking about placing them in front of screen to prevent using them on the board.
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Rickon Stark
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I was curious to find out if one would get a power token for raiding a sea area where, as has been discussed above, one of your opponent's had been forced to play a consolidate power token because they had run out of other legal order tokens to play. I found the below discussion:

Quote:
A consolidate power token on a sea area is removed (without effect) at the same time all the other consolidate power tokens are removed.

When a consolidate power token on a sea area is raided, the attacker still gets to "pillage" the defender.

Jason

Jason Walden
Game Producer
Fantasy Flight Games
www.fantasyflightgames.com
jwalden@fantasyflightgames.com


http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/697...
 
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Rickon Stark
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I do however, have one more question about pillaging:
Does one get only 1 power token for raiding a consolidate power token (and your opponent must then discard one if they are able to) OR
Does one get 1 power token for raiding a consolidate power token AND 1 power token for each power icon printed on the area that is being raided (just as your opponent would have if they had been able to resolve their token)?
For example, if one raided a consolidate power token from King's Landing, do you get 1 power token for the pillage, or 3 power tokens total for the 1 token and the 2 printed icons(and does your opponent then discard 1 or 3 of their power tokens)?
 
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Björn Grafström
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You always get one power token if you raid another players consolidate power order, regardless of where the consolidate power order has been placed (no difference in raiding Crackclaw Point with no crown symbols or King's Landing with two).
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Rickon Stark
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Thanks, got it!
 
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