Daniel Rohlin
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I´ve only played a few (between 5 and 10) different 18xx sessions, so please excuse me if the answers seems obvious to hardened veterans.

A question about 18AL
What would happen if the "purchase only one train per round until the 4-trains" - rule would be removed (along with delayed obsolesence for the 4-trains). Would the game just get nastier or would it break entirely?

A question about 1865:Sardinia. I´ve recived both 1865 and 1860 about the same time this summer, and when I read the rules 1860 said it was possibly to play the game without train limit, What would happen if the train limit was removed from 1865? (or 18AL/ 1830 for that matter) I dont see how it makes that much difference in 1865 (I think I understand why it´s so important in 1830/18AL but may be wrong)

To put it another way; why does the no train limit work in 1860?

Thanks in advance.

Daniel
 
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Breno K.
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Without the train limit rule, it would be possible to make one super-strong company, and the game would no longer force players to balance that element in the game. I don't remember it existing in 1860...

The one-train-per turn assures a slower early game and makes teh game less prone to bankruptcies, the early game becomes more constructive.
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J C Lawrence
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alfadanne wrote:
What would happen if the "purchase only one train per round until the 4-trains" - rule would be removed (along with delayed obsolesence for the 4-trains). Would the game just get nastier or would it break entirely?


The trains would move fast enough that the diesels (or diesel equivalents) would come out in about OR3.2. Nothing short of a permanent train would run more than twice, several would only run once and one rank would likely rust before it ever ran.
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Daniel Rohlin
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clearclaw wrote:
alfadanne wrote:
What would happen if the "purchase only one train per round until the 4-trains" - rule would be removed (along with delayed obsolesence for the 4-trains). Would the game just get nastier or would it break entirely?


The trains would move fast enough that the diesels (or diesel equivalents) would come out in about OR3.2. Nothing short of a permanent train would run more than twice, several would only run once and one rank would likely rust before it ever ran.


Is that bad?
 
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J C Lawrence
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Yes.
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Adam Badura
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clearclaw wrote:
Yes.


Could you elaborate more...
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J C Lawrence
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If the diesels come out in ~OR3.2, all games will end in bankruptcies, with the exact choice of which player bankrupts being the result of the lottery formed by the game till then.
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Adam Badura
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clearclaw wrote:
If the diesels come out in ~OR3.2, all games will end in bankruptcies, with the exact choice of which player bankrupts being the result of the lottery formed by the game till then.


And how do you think it is possible to reach diesels in 18AL ~OR3.2?

OR3.2 is at most fifth operating round.

Even if in case of 18AL we would consider 7T rather than diesel (4D) since 7T rusts 4T (last non-permanent) it is still:
5x 2T [5x $100 = $500]
4x 3T [4x $180 = $720]
3x 4T [3x $300 = $1200]
2x 5T [2x $450 = $900]
1x 6T [1x $630 = $630]
1x 7T [1x $700 = $700]
SUM = $4650

Lets even go with optimistic assumption that the train for half price private (New Decatur Yards) will be used to buy the first 5T so -$225 it still leaves us at $4425 to be raised and spend on trains in 3x SR and 5x OR.

Players start with $1800 (in case of 3 players) or $2000 (in case of 4 or 5 players). Again lets go with the more optimistic variant. Lets even assume that somehow privates sold for the minimum possible which is $330. This leaves us with $1670 in players hands.

Since 18AL uses full capitalization and floating is at 60% we may approximate corporations treasuries by $1670/0.6 = $2783. (More could be reached but only if players would dedicate to start as many corporations as possible and as high as possible by helping one another and without carrying who will actually end controlling them. And this is unreasonable assumption.)

So to cover train costs those corporations would have to earn (and most likely withhold) $4425 - $2783 = $1642 in the first 5 ORs. Somehow I don't see this...
 
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J C Lawrence
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adambadura wrote:
Somehow I don't see this...


In SR1 3 companies float, adding ~$1,800 to the economy (figure a par of $60). The 3Ts come out in OR1 along with privates being sold in, adding another $600+ to the economy. In SR2 the raped companies are sold down to their presidencies and most of the 5 remaining companies are floated at $100 with the 6th share sold and a better/paying share bought in its place, adding ~$2,500 more to the economy. In SR3 the last companies comes out with the companies floated in SR2 variously trashed or sold down to adjust operating order (finishing off the $2,500). So far the total capitalisation for the game is $2,000+$1,800+$600+$2,500 for a total of $6,900 by SR3. Add some slop for dividends and the bankruptcy could be as early as OR3.1. Remove some slop for capital dilution too if you want -- there's lots of room.

BTW: We've done this here several times with variously unbalanced games. One of the more entertaining was 18Mex and making the train limit 4 in yellow and green. BOOM!
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Peter Mumford
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alfadanne wrote:
A question about 18AL
What would happen if the "purchase only one train per round until the 4-trains" - rule would be removed (along with delayed obsolesence for the 4-trains). Would the game just get nastier or would it break entirely?

You could just take clearclaw's word for it, or you could try it yourself. I realize that clearclaw has actually tried this, so he has authority there. But nevertheless, if you come up with a variant, for heaven's sake playtest it! Then you can tell us what you think. Your results might be different from his. Your opinion might be different from his.

Also, for what its worth, if you want to accelerate the game a bit, you could try Derrick's variant from the rulebook: allow corporations to lay two yellow tiles on their first operating round. This subtle change gets things off to a quick start but does not change the nature of the game. Meaning, if you find 18AL dull its not going to fix it, but if you like the game but want a little boost, you will probably enjoy it.
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Daniel Rohlin
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photocurio wrote:
alfadanne wrote:
A question about 18AL
What would happen if the "purchase only one train per round until the 4-trains" - rule would be removed (along with delayed obsolesence for the 4-trains). Would the game just get nastier or would it break entirely?

You could just take clearclaw's word for it, or you could try it yourself. I realize that clearclaw has actually tried this, so he has authority there. But nevertheless, if you come up with a variant, for heaven's sake playtest it! Then you can tell us what you think. Your results might be different from his. Your opinion might be different from his.


I hear you. It´s just that I so very rarely get to play 18xx so playtesting something that, to someone with a ounce of knowledge, clearly will not work, would be something of a lost opportunity to me.

I´m grateful for all answers and feedback by the way.
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J C Lawrence
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photocurio wrote:
You could just take clearclaw's word for it, or you could try it yourself.


A note of correction: I've been replying generically, mostly abstracting from 1830 with small touches of 18Mex, and not specifically for 18AL. I didn't find 18AL, 18GA or 18TN worth playing, but have played rather a lot of 18Mex, 1830 etc. That said the patterns at this level are simple and very generic.
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Peter Mumford
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Re: ..removing rules in 18AL
Games that let you buy multiple 2-trains at the start are certainly more exciting at the beginning. They introduce a whole new element of risk. If you want to explore that, it might be worth going straight to 1830 rather than trying to adapt 18AL. 1889 also plays this way, in a smaller game.

I actually like the slow start of the Derrick games. They start slowly and accelerate. And I agree with clearclaw in that 18Mex is the best of the lot.
 
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