David Janik-Jones
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Has anyone come up with a variant or suitable house rule that would prevent players from the "gamey" tactic of focusing on a unit with a hit counter to try to eliminate it, even though there might be closer, unharmed units to it?

I mean, realistically, you shoot at a squad four or five hexes away (200+ yards) and manage a yellow hit counter. Your next unit ignores the visible enemy squad two hexes away from itself to fire at that hit unit in the hopes of eliminating it with even a minor type of second hit.

Has anyone altered the rules about a bit to account for that? Only certain types of two hits kills? Have to fire at closest unharmed units first? Etc?

Just curious.

Happy new year.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Well... I'm not convinced it's that gamey: if the hit marker on the board corresponds to some perceived real-life advantage (we are firing at them, and their heads are down or they're falling back out of cover, or whatever the back side of that marker means to the attacker), then it makes sense that the attacker would choose to press that advantage.

(Or, presumably you had a good reason to fire at that unit in the first place, and the presence of the hit marker doesn't change that...)
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David Janik-Jones
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Thanks Rusty.

I suppose I'm also too much in the camp of WW2 history nuts who know that two squads of passably heads down/slightly entrenched soldiers firing at 300 yard range won't even manage to damage the other much at all. Large VOF from a base of fire to keep heads down and then an assault at close range to finish them off is what's needed.

I guess that's my CoH concern, but then again ...

Hitting a squad the first time (let's say in some light trees) on their front with a 3 FP attack requires a roll of 10 anyway (without CAPs). You'd just need to have second squad handy to run in there as your next actions and finish them if you were looking to replicate historic tactics.

I guess I'm just thinking out loud. Thanks.
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Chris K.
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Actually that was the one thing that most stuck out when I first learned the game. How the mechanics make you do exactly that. Have some units provide cover fire that doesn't do much besides occasional lucky hits and if you really want to do something you need to have a maneuver element close in.

I mean, even a 10+ roll is something that a lot of units in the game would have to spend half the game shooting at to get the probability to more than even chances of getting the hit. And as the defender you are always free to take actions to protect that vulnerable unit by rallying or retreating it.

So .. I'd say it's perfectly fine.
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I agree with DaveyJJ that it is too easy in CoH to eliminate a unit just firing at it from the distance. The unit hit once and pinned or supressed gets here often under heavy fire from a few enemy units firing at distance, which doesn't correspond very well to what actually happened on the battlefield. It is actually quite often more advisable here to fire safely from a distance to such a unit than approach it aiming for a short range fire or close combat, putting yourself in some danger.

I use multiple hits in play - a unit can take more than one hit, their effects cumulating (with exceptions for Berserk chit), elimination from the play (representing loss of cohesion, retreat, surrender or actual casualties) may be achieved only by a critical hit. I also do not use instant kill chit. These are some of a few modifications I play with, others addressing issues of underdeveloped defensive fire, CAP spending limits etc. Maybe I'll get down to posting these rules in this forum some time soon.
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David Janik-Jones
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aplegat2 wrote:
I agree with DaveyJJ that it is too easy in CoH to eliminate a unit just firing at it from the distance. The unit hit once and pinned or supressed gets here often under heavy fire from a few enemy units firing at distance, which doesn't correspond very well to what actually happened on the battlefield. It is actually quite often more advisable here to fire safely from a distance to such a unit than approach it aiming for a short range fire or close combat, putting yourself in some danger.

I use multiple hits in play - a unit can take more than one hit, their effects cumulating (with exceptions for Berserk chit), elimination from the play (representing loss of cohesion, retreat, surrender or actual casualties) may be achieved only by a critical hit. I also do not use instant kill chit. These are some of a few modifications I play with, others addressing issues of underdeveloped defensive fire, CAP spending limits etc. Maybe I'll get down to posting these rules in this forum some time soon.


Dziekuje, aplegat2. I'd like to see your basic idea for multiple, cumulative hits. Sounds interesting.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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kuhrusty wrote:
(Or, presumably you had a good reason to fire at that unit in the first place, and the presence of the hit marker doesn't change that...)


Well said.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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aplegat2 wrote:
I agree with DaveyJJ that it is too easy in CoH to eliminate a unit just firing at it from the distance... It is actually quite often more advisable here to fire safely from a distance to such a unit than approach it aiming for a short range fire or close combat, putting yourself in some danger.


Perhaps some of you guys are under ultilising your defensive options. While expensive, hasty defense does make a unit much harder to hit. If it prevents you from having to spend 5 AP to rally it has already pretty much paid off. And what about smoke? Not every scenario gives you the option, but when it does, it's also great for ruining those long distant shots. In my experience, a well played defense makes it rather hard for the offensive player to sit back and take shots from a distance and expect to win that way. I see no need to modify things to minimize long range lethality other than to make hasty defenses a little more defender friendly. And that is another topic.
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DaveyJJ wrote:

Has anyone altered the rules about a bit to account for that? Only certain types of two hits kills? Have to fire at closest unharmed units first? Etc?


Ever since being disappointed by almost every aspect of Band of Brothers other than the suppression and final op fire systems, I've been wondering if there is not some way to bring these effects to CoH.

Our first idea was to have two sets of hit counters - the regular set and a second set for suppression which would occur on attacks that were 1 less, 1 more and exactly the amount required to hit. Suppression counters would never add up to a kill result. That seems like too much fiddlyness however, which detracts from exactly the thing I like most about CoH.

After reading this thread I'm thinking a better approach is to just let hit counters stack effects, with some kind of exception so that retreat movement is always possible.

The reinforcing focus of fire in the CoH design however doesn't stop with just the ease of killing a hit unit - killing a unit also reduces the opponents CAP, which is a powerful motivation to dogpile. Perhaps CAP should be lost for hit units and regained if units rally?

I still also remain fundamentally dissatisfied with the gamey exhaustion of the opposing unit's activated forces, but I am now motivated enough to try the variant where activated unit's remaining AP are tracked by dice so that multiple can be activated... I have hope that will provide the same effect that final OP fire does in BoB.
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Dean halley

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Matt,
I am always tinkering with CoH house rules. One has to do with rating hits for severity, so that a second hit only applies if it has a higher severity rating than the first hit. The severity number could easily be added to each hit counter for quick reference.

For example: a Pinned hit has a rating of two, and a suppressed hit has a rating of 3. A unit that draws a suppressed hit counter when hit the first time would ignore any pinned hit counter it drew for a second hit. The pinned hit counter in this case would be treated as a miss, and placed back in the hit pool.

And I actually made up a set of homemade AP counters that I used to 1) have multiple units on each side activated at one time, and 2) to track each activated units APs. I even had the AP counters placed under the units as a limited form of Fog of war. I liked using the AP counters (but then I am an old ASL who is used to tall stacks of counters), but they added quite a bit of clutter to the game that I am not sure everyone would like.

I am currently working on an overwatch action that I haven't play tested face-to-face. Its simply allows a fresh unit to fire at a moving enemy target without being activated. That unit cannot be activated later in the round, but it can take a second fire watch action, after which it is spent. I have home made Overwatch counters for that too.

And the last house rule I use is to give MG squads a -1AP bonus when firing at a moving enemy unit if their dice roll for the attack was even.

That all of my house rules. Try them and see what you think, and let me know too.

take care,
Dean

 
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Jesse LeBreton
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down range wrote:
...I am currently working on an overwatch action that I haven't play tested face-to-face. Its simply allows a fresh unit to fire at a moving enemy target without being activated. That unit cannot be activated later in the round, but it can take a second fire watch action, after which it is spent. I have home made Overwatch counters for that too.
take care,
Dean


Tide of Iron has got that feature to be able to put a unit on instant alert. Many months back there was a discussion here about putting something similar into COH. What I thought best was to have a new card created that allowed the holder to interrupt a move to take a shot at where they wanted to. Say at a T34 moving from cover to the open then back into cover. The card would allow a shot while the T34 was in the open. It's a perfect card for an anti-tank gun to use that is set up to cover a certain approach. I wonder what ever happened to that idea. Uwe chimed in and thought it was a neat idea for a new card. Has it been forgotten? Or was it determined to not be such a hot idea?
 
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Dean halley

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Jesse,
It seems to me that a card like that is just a muted version of command action card, so maybe that is why it didn't show up anywhere. Just a thought.

Dean
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down range wrote:
Matt,
I am always tinkering with CoH house rules

[...]

That all of my house rules. Try them and see what you think, and let me know too.


Wow! Well I'm glad you're enjoying CoH so much, but most of those house rules add exactly the kind of complexity I want to avoid by playing CoH.

My ideal variant of CoH is no more complex, or even simpler, but slightly less "gamey". cool
 
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A.T. Selvaggio
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DaveyJJ wrote:
Has anyone come up with a variant or suitable house rule that would prevent players from the "gamey" tactic of focusing on a unit with a hit counter to try to eliminate it, even though there might be closer, unharmed units to it?

I mean, realistically, you shoot at a squad four or five hexes away (200+ yards) and manage a yellow hit counter. Your next unit ignores the visible enemy squad two hexes away from itself to fire at that hit unit in the hopes of eliminating it with even a minor type of second hit.

Has anyone altered the rules about a bit to account for that? Only certain types of two hits kills? Have to fire at closest unharmed units first? Etc?

Just curious.

Happy new year.


I love CoH, but the issue you raised is addressed on point by Jim Krohn's Band of Brothers: Screaming Eagles. He agrees with you on WWII tactics and has built it into the gameplay.
 
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Dean halley

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But I like ASL and CoH, so that is why ASL keeps bleeding over for me into CoH.

I like your stacking hit results idea, but flesh it out a bit for me, so I don't have to reinvent the wheel. Give me (us) something specific to work with so we can see if it really works without creating problems somewhere else in the system. House rules can have a tendency to do that. Called unintended consequences. I learned that the hard way.

take care,
Dean
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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down range wrote:
Jesse,
It seems to me that a card like that is just a muted version of command action card, so maybe that is why it didn't show up anywhere. Just a thought.

Dean


A command action card can't interrupt a fast vehicle and allow a shot before it completes its moves, so it's nothing like it. This proposed card would allow, as I said before, a free shot during the vehicles movement. Of coarse the player holding the card would use it at the best time when the vehicle has no cover and perhaps an exposed flank too. To boot(I just thought of adding this) the card can act like a dual action card as well because taking that opportunity shot would not count as your next action. Once the vehicle is done moving, whether or not it survived, the player who just used that card can now take his regular turn. So my idea to make it sort of like a dual action card along with a somewhat restricted opportunity to use it makes it not to strong and not to weak of a card. I think it would make a nice higher number card. One that a scenario designer could specifically call out and make available for the defending player is his scenario.
 
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Dean halley

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You are right. Very different than a command action. Send Uwe a prototype of the card, and see what he says. A prototype is nothing more than what the card would say, how many APs or CAPs the action will cost, etc.

Dean

 
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Jesse LeBreton
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I made a new thread today just to see what kind of reception it receives. It's called the Vigilant Gunner card.
 
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down range wrote:
But I like ASL and CoH, so that is why ASL keeps bleeding over for me into CoH. :D


:D

Hey you gotta do what you love!

Quote:

I like your stacking hit results idea, but flesh it out a bit for me, so I don't have to reinvent the wheel. Give me (us) something specific to work with so we can see if it really works without creating problems somewhere else in the system.


Fair enuff... how about:

1. Remove the instant death counter(s) from the set of infantry hit counters. If you have two sets of hit counters (from AtB and SoS) combine them so you won't run out.
2. For infantry when you draw a second hit counter, don't kill the unit. Instead stack both counters. Put the most damaging counter at the top. When you rally from it, the subsequent counter is still in effect. At the end of the turn, any units with multiple hit counters are reduced to having a single hit counter.
3. A unit that has any number of hit counters costs it's owner 1 CAP (as though it were eliminated normally) if the unit rallies to normal strength then the CAP is restored.
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Marcin Woźniak
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Hey, those are great!
 
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DaveyJJ wrote:
Dziekuje, aplegat2.

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DaveyJJ wrote:
I'd like to see your basic idea for multiple, cumulative hits. Sounds interesting.

I finally got down to writing the rules and the rationale for them, it's here.
 
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