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Subject: How do you feel about discoveries? rss

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Duke Of Lizards
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Livin's mostly wasting time, and I waste my share of mine
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I've played twice now and it seems that the players that get very good discoveries early are destined to win the game. In particular, the ship upgrades that come from discoveries are crazy powerful (Triple Hull, anyone?). To compound the problem, the luck of one's explore draw determines how easy it is to get a discovery.

What are your thoughts on discoveries. How do you mitigate less useful draws?
 
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Antti Autio
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polychrotid wrote:
I've played twice now and it seems that the players that get very good discoveries early are destined to win the game. In particular, the ship upgrades that come from discoveries are crazy powerful (Triple Hull, anyone?). To compound the problem, the luck of one's explore draw determines how easy it is to get a discovery.

What are your thoughts on discoveries. How do you mitigate less useful draws?

You take two free VP.

More discussion about these random elements and possible effects of luck here and Discovery Tiles in here.
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JonGetsGames
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Honestly 2 play throughs isn't enough to really grasp how all this stuff interacts. The more you play the more you will realize things like Shard hull bieng only good early/mid game against ancients and the moment people start rolling orange dice its just as good as the regular super cheap Improved Hull upgrade.

I won last nights game by cashing in for 2vps on both of my discovery tiles. Won by 2 points! Keep going, the more you play the more balanced you'll feel everything is (in my opinion anyway)
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Curt Carpenter
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aautio wrote:
You take two free VP.

In my experience, this is not nearly as good as the good ship upgrades, on early discovery tiles. But yeah, on late discoveries, 2vp is almost always the best value.
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Purple Paladin

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In our 3 player game, the newest player got really lucky, he got the 11 energy, the super hull, and the free ship. Not only that he was the Orions. surprise

We thought he'd wipe out the entire galaxy, but he came in second; by ONE point.

If he had just kept even one of those 2VPs instead of the other bonuses, he would have won.


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Curt Carpenter
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Purple Paladin wrote:
In our 3 player game, the newest player got really lucky, he got the 11 energy, the super hull, and the free ship. Not only that he was the Orions. surprise

We thought he'd wipe out the entire galaxy, but he came in second; by ONE point.

If he had just kept even one of those 2VPs instead of the other bonuses, he would have won.

So you're saying he got no benefit from the ship parts???
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Purple Paladin

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Of course he did, he got lots of benefits, just not the "Win the entire game by 1 point" benafit he could have taken.
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Geoff Hall
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Ah but would he have been 1 point behind the winner without making use of the awesome ancient ship parts on his ships? If he would have been then, well, they weren't that awesome then were they?
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Curt Carpenter
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So none of the benefits he got were worth any vp? I just don't get how you're discounting the opportunity cost of not choosing one of the awesome ship parts, unless one of them was near game end, in which case I would suspect he didn't get much mileage out of them after all.
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Purple Paladin

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Please stop putting words in my mouth ("so your saying"; "so none of"). Nor do I have a time machine and so can't tell what would happen in an alternate reality if he had played "as good as you would have in the same situation".

I wrote what happened and what the end score was. I only know he lost by one point and did not take the 2RPs out of 6 he got, the game "sounds" balanced already to me.

If you think the ship parts are too "scary" for you, house rule them out.

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Curt Carpenter
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I was asking questions, if you'll notice, seeing if I was understanding you correctly. Now who's putting words in who's mouth? I didn't say the ship parts are too scary. I'm only questioning the conclusion that that he would have won if only would have chosen the 2vp. There's an opportunity cost, if the parts were deemed useful. That's all.
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Purple Paladin

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Whoops, I guess we all did not have one of the best gaming experiences of our lives. I guess I will tell all my friends who played to come on here and read how unbalanced the game really is, and how much they should'nt have enjoyed it.

You sold your game and you no longer play it.

You don't like. We get it. Now that I see your a troll, I'm not feeding you.




 
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Jim Richardson

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Curt is correct on this point, which seems obvious to me -- it's easy to say "I took all those techs and lost by 1 VP, if only I had taken 2VP instead!" without recognizing the benefits granted by the techs. Perhaps the 2VP would have won you the game, or perhaps not taking the tech would have ended up earning you less VP, or the same.
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Curt Carpenter
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Purple Paladin wrote:
I guess I will tell all my friends who played to come on here and read how unbalanced the game really is, and how much they should'nt have enjoyed it.

You don't like. We get it. Now that I see your a troll, I'm not feeding you.

Did I step into The Twilight Zone? I have no idea what I have done to offend you, or what axe you have to grind against me.
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Andrew Foerster
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Yeah, I see Curt's point. Purple Paladin noted that one player got "lucky" by securing all of these powerful technologies that matched well with his species. And then noting that he had lost by one point and that keeping 2 RPs at some point would have one him the game ... when it seems that by definition he would have to have passon on one of these crazy strong techs.
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Wim van Gruisen
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For this point, see my session report somewhere on these pages. I played the Hydran Progress and my first three explorations got me surrounded by Ancients that I could not beat yet. It stalled my development when the rest soared forward. However, when I could beat the Ancients surrounding me, I found a Shard Hull and a Hypergrid Source. Put those two on my cruisers and sailed to, well, second place. My fleet was the strongest on the board.

Did I get strong because of the technology? Yes, absolutely.
Could the others have prevented it? Yes. They could have exploited their early lead. With their early advancements they could have snuck up on me when I was still weak. If they had fought the Ancients before I got there, they would have found at least half the tech tiles.
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Riku Riekkinen
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andrewfoerster wrote:
Yeah, I see Curt's point. Purple Paladin noted that one player got "lucky" by securing all of these powerful technologies that matched well with his species.


I think the discoveries he mentioned didn't match at all with Orion Hegemony.

1) 11 energy. Orion Hegemony doesn't need extra energy at the start.

2) 3 Hull. Well this is kind of good at the start, if you miss Improved Hull, witch you should not miss. So usually almost useless to Hegemony.

3) Cruiser. Well extra Cruiser is ok at the start. But Orion Hegemony needs this far less than others, since it already has a cruiser and materials & material production to do more fleet, if needed.

In my opinion those are exactly the 3 discoveries that Orion Hegemony has less use than the others.
 
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Timo Hohkala
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Riku Riekkinen wrote:
andrewfoerster wrote:
Yeah, I see Curt's point. Purple Paladin noted that one player got "lucky" by securing all of these powerful technologies that matched well with his species.


I think the discoveries he mentioned didn't match at all with Orion Hegemony.

1) 11 energy. Orion Hegemony doesn't need extra energy at the start.

2) 3 Hull. Well this is kind of good at the start, if you miss Improved Hull, witch you should not miss. So usually almost useless to Hegemony.

3) Cruiser. Well extra Cruiser is ok at the start. But Orion Hegemony needs this far less than others, since it already has a cruiser and materials & material production to do more fleet, if needed.

In my opinion those are exactly the 3 discoveries that Orion Hegemony has less use than the others.


1) Or at all for that matter since their innate energy production bonus.

2) Solid for any race, but Orion being the most warmongering they do benefit from it, but not much more than anyone else.

3) Two cruisers (starts with 5 materials) should be more than enough to kick ancient but on round 1 even without any techs (I sure did on my game, that -1 shield really helps)

Bottom line is we cannot know if he had won or not by taking that 2 VP. It's all "what ifs".
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Geoff Hall
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Purple Paladin wrote:
Whoops, I guess we all did not have one of the best gaming experiences of our lives. I guess I will tell all my friends who played to come on here and read how unbalanced the game really is, and how much they should'nt have enjoyed it.

You sold your game and you no longer play it.

You don't like. We get it. Now that I see your a troll, I'm not feeding you.


I love the game and have rated it a 9. I completely agree with Curt here; you're totally missing the point and Curt is correct.

If those techs helped him so much then surely by NOT taking one of them and taking the 2 VPs instead the player would have lost some VPs elsewhere (presumably as a result of losing one or more fights that he actually won)? If he wouldn't have lost VPs elsewhere then the ship parts weren't as crucial and awesome as you were initially making out and he made the wrong decision in keeping at least one of them.

That's one of the things that makes Eclipse so good. You have to weigh the opportunity cost and potential benefits of using the discovery tiles against the straight 2 VP. Sometimes they will absolutely be worth using, sometimes (usually later in the game) they will clearly not be worth it. And sometimes it's very difficult to judge and maybe your winning or losing could turn on the decision if the game is very close at the end. Certainly I made the wrong decision in my first game and ended up losing by 4 points when I could easily have not used two of my discovery tiles and it would have had no effect on anything else and would have netted my 4 extra points, making it a tie. My mistake but then I didn't know that at the time. It was still an excellent session though.
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stephen biggs
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twibs wrote:
.

3) Two cruisers (starts with 5 materials) should be more than enough to kick ancient but on round 1 even without any techs (I sure did on my game, that -1 shield really helps)

I agree 2 Orion cruisers can kick ancient butt.
However a 3rd Orion cruiser can kick GCDS butt.

twibs wrote:
.

Bottom line is we cannot know if he had won or not by taking that 2 VP. It's all "what ifs".

Irrefutable
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