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Subject: Leader Casualty Check rss

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Steve Carter
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In the optional LCC rules in section VI-A on page 10, there is a curious phrase which I have never really paid attention to: "for both forces' SPs"

In a case where a large force eliminates an enemy force (e.g. 35 SPs attacking 17 SPs), and the superior attacking force has no casualties, does the superior force still need to roll for casualties for its two-star leaders? The rule states:

"If step 1. total is 14 or more, for both forces‟ SPs..."

In this case, the smaller force lost 17 SPs, so its total is 14 or more.
However a strict reading of the rule seems to indicate that even the victorious force, which lost no SPs, still has to conduct casualty checks for all of its two-star leaders. Is this correct?
 
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Doug Pratto
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The 3rd Edition Rules are being revised to clear up a bunch of questions. The optional rule is being re-written to look like this:

A. LEADER CASUALTY CHECK
This method works best in games that contain a great number of SPs.
• Casualty die roll (CDR): 1-3 no effect, 4 captured, 5 wounded, 6 killed.
EXCEPTIONS: 1) If no SPs left and outside a Fort, 1-3 retreats to nearest friendly-occupied hex, 4 captured, 5 wounded, 6 killed.
2) If no SPs left and inside a Fort, 1 escapes to nearest friendly-occupied hex, 2-5 captured, 6 killed.
PROCEDURE:
1. After last round of each combat (not NE result in 1st round), only players that lost SPs roll 2 dice & add result to friendly SPs lost.
• if total is 13 or more, each friendly 1-star named Leader & Leader E in the hex must undergo a CDR
• if total is 14 or more, each player checks his SPs in the hex:
• if any survive, each friendly 2-star named Leader in the hex (not overall commander) must undergo a CDR
• if none left, each friendly 2-star named Leader in the hex must undergo a CDR
2. If no friendly SPs left,
• nameless Leaders in the hex are removed to Turn Track & placed at start of next Turn on a friendly-occupied hex
• If no CDR was required in step 1., each named Leader in the hex must undergo a CDR

Hope that clears things up.
 
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Steve Carter
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Unfortunately, no, it does not clear it up for me. The way the rewrite is written, it is still difficult to understand which points are subordinate to which other points. For example, the last bullet implies (to me) that the player who did not qualify for a CDR in step one (because he lost no SPs in the battle) will still need to perform a CDR for every named leader in the hex. However, I am still not sure if that is the intent.
 
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Doug Pratto
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Sorry about that. The format was lost in my last message. Here's how the rule actually looks. The text in green is the revised text from the original. Clearer now?

 
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Steve Carter
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Yes; much better, Thanks!
 
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Jeremy Brubaker
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This rule still confuses me, although that might be because I don't understand the intent. Are the following statements correct:

1. If ONE player loses SP and the result of the SINGLE die roll plus losses is >= 14, BOTH players must make ONE CDR for all 2-stars (minus the overall commander if friendly SP remain)

2. If BOTH players lose SP and the results of BOTH die rolls plus losses is >= 14 then BOTH players must make TWO CDR for all 2-stars (minus the overall commander if friendly SP remain)

3. Regardless of the results of any die rolls plus losses, if ALL friendly SP are lost, all friendly nameless Leaders are placed on the Turn Track and all friendly named Leaders make a CDR
 
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Steve Carter
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Based on the rule revisions above, I don't believe that your point #1 is true. If One player loses SPs in combat, only that One player needs to do an LCC die roll. The player that lost no SPs cannot roll more than a '12' with two dice.

Your point #2 is incorrect, since only one CDR is done for each leader.

Point #3 is true, I believe.
 
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Jeremy Brubaker
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tallracer333 wrote:
Based on the rule revisions above, I don't believe that your point #1 is true. If One player loses SPs in combat, only that One player needs to do an LCC die roll. The player that lost no SPs cannot roll more than a '12' with two dice.


But the rule says:
- if total is 13 or more each friendly Leader...must undergo a CDR
- if the total is 14 or more each player checks his SPs in the hex...

If your intrepretation is correct (which I think would make sense) it should read:
- if total is 13 or more each friendly Leader...must undergo a CDR
- if the total is 14 or more the player checks his SPs in the hex...

So, even if only one player makes a LCC, the rules as written say it may apply to both

tallracer333 wrote:
Your point #2 is incorrect, since only one CDR is done for each leader.

I agree that this is probably what should happen, but I don't think the rule as written supports this because there is the potential for two LCC rolls and rolls of 14 or more seem to apply to both
 
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Steve Carter
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Jeremy, you are correct. However, I have had this discussion with Doug Pratto, who is working on a rules revision to clarify this. I think that the way I have stated it is his intention in the revisions. I am not sure when he will be ready to publish the rules update.
 
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Jeremy Brubaker
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OK. Like I said, I think the rule should work the way you stated, it just doesn't the way it is written.

Thanks
 
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