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Subject: Navegador or Belfort rss

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Madhujith Venkatakrishna
Australia
Melbourne
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Hi All,

Planning to get a game at the start of the year and considering the 2 mentioned above.

My criteria for selection:

- Medium to Heavy game play
- Should play well with 2
- Unique from the Euros that I own (please see my collection for the same)

Please let me know which of the 2 fits this criteria.

Thanks,
Madhu
 
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Chris Wood
United States
Darien
Illinois
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Navegador
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Mathue Faulkner
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Austin
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Either game really fits your criteria, so it will really come down to preference...

But my vote is Navegador!!
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Richard Ham
Malta
Marsalforn
Gozo, Malta
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I think Navegador works better for 2p. They're both comparable in terms of weight. You've already got some worker placement games, but then, you've also got Imperial. Since you list imperial as a game you love that you can't get to the table much because it's so heavy, I'd say that definitely seals it for Navegador....
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Sheldon
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Burnaby
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+1 Navegador
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Frank M.
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For 2 players, I'd give Navegador the edge. In Belfort, the scoring is for 1st and 2nd place, which just doesn't quite make it for me in any 2P unless there is an A.I. player that has a real chance of taking 1st or 2nd in every scoring category.

That said, Navegador is not nearly as much fun 2P, either, but given the choice, I'd prefer it. I love both games!

Le Havre is a terrific 2P game. You also might want to check out The Road to Canterbury. And Fresco's 2P variant works adequately, as well, since there is a "neutral" player.

And I like Olympos even more than Caylus...

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Jimmy Okolica
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My personal opinion is that Belfort plays best with 2 players. The 2 player variant works fine and with 4 players, the game takes too long.

That said, you're trying to compare an Area Control game with a worker placement mechanic with a economic/VP collection game. Personally, I prefer Navegador but that's because I'm not a huge fan of area control games.

Both are excellent games and my guess is you'll enjoy either one.
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I like both of these but they are very different mechanistically.

What I like about Navegador - This can be a very nice tight game with real choices on what to do each round. It's not multi-player solitaire. The market is one source of direct interaction, but it also has an impact on your choices of what factories/colonies to aquire.

What I like about Belfort - It doesn't feel like just another worker placement game. There is a nice balance between building cards that will help your economic engine and those that will help your area control. The cards and guilds give some variety to each game, although how much is still not clear to me.

Other (not sure any of these matter, but for what my 2 cents are worth):

Length - Belfort seems signficantly longer to me than Navegador

Weight - About the same really, although Belfort can seem heavier because of the length

Downtime - Belfort significantly higher than Navegador

Suitability for 2p - They are both suitable for 2p. I have not played Belfort with more than 2p, but the area control aspects are probably more interesting with more, plus there are interactive guilds that would work better with more. On the other hand, I guess I'm shuddering about the downtime in Belfort with more than 2p. With Navegador, I'm now fairly bored with the 2p game at least with the same person. I don't feel like there's much left to explore, whereas the 4p game continues to fascinate me.

Replayability- I wish I could answer this one, but I don't have enough plays yet of Belfort. Per above, Navegador has become a bit boring for me with 2 players, although I was in love with it when I first got it. Belfort still seems new, although I guess I wonder how much exploring card combinations will stay new longer term.

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Andy Andersen
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It's the New Year. Both
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Loren Cadelinia
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You own Imperial, so I assume you are familiar with the rondel mechanic, so its not completely unique to you. Having said that, I think that the market in Navegador and the multiple paths to victory are things I enjoy most about Navegador.

Belfort, is a great game, with great production value, but I think it is 1 expansion away from it hitting the table more often.

+1 for Navegador
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GANDON Fran├žois
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Second Navegador, although fully agree with Sue G. : becomes rather boring after a while when played with the same person
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Mathue Faulkner
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GANDON wrote:
Second Navegador, although fully agree with Sue G. : becomes rather boring after a while when played with the same person

I also think that exploring is a bit too overpowered in a 2-player game...

In a game like Navegador, I hate the feeling that I'm obligated to do something or else I'm going to lose the game. Exploring feels like a necessity with 2...
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Richard Ham
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Marsalforn
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You should check out this thread, where Tom Lehmann (the designer of Race for the Galaxy) suggests a solid 2p variant to fix the colonization issue. Well worth it...
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Madhujith Venkatakrishna
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Thanks s ton for all these really insightful points. After seeing a few video reviews and reading a few+ the points you've all made I've decided to go with Navegador immediately, but Belfort is not too far off the horizon (may be another 6 odd months later).

But for now Navegador it is!

Thanks again to all of you.
 
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