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Subject: "if" cards rss

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Rastislav Bodi
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Hi.

I am not certain how to deal with cards that have "If" at the beginning of their event text.

Let's see an example:

"KITCHEN DEBATES"
If the US controls more Battleground countries than the USSR, poke opponent in chest and gain 2VP!

Quote:

The rulebook says this:

5.2 Events Associated With Your Opponent: If a player plays a card as an Operation, and the card's Event is associated only with his opponent, the Event still occurs (and the card, if it has as asterisk after the Event title, is removed).


So far so good.

Quote:

...
- If a card play triggers an opponent's Event, but that Event cannot occur because a prerequisite card has not been played, or a condition expressed in the Event has not been met, the Event does not occur. In this instance, cards with an asterisk Event (marked *) are returned to the discard pile, not removed from the game.
...
- If a card play triggers an opponent's Event, but the Event results in no effect, the Event is still considered played, and would still be removed if it has an asterisk.

emphasis mine

I turned to the examples given but they are written uncertain for me:

Quote:

EXAMPLE 4: The USSR plays 'Star Wars' for Operations which would normally trigger the event, but the US player is behind on the Space Race track. The result is no effect and the 'Star Wars' card is returned to the discard pile.

emphasis mine

The example says that there is no effect (as in "bottom" rule) but the card is returned to discard pile (as in the "upper" rule)

I looked through the "Files" section for Twilight Struggle and found this: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/46437/twiligh-struggle...
For KITCHEN DEBATES they say:
Quote:
Note that if played when the USA has less battlegrounds than the USSR the event is still removed from the deck

So they follow the "bottom" rule. This contradicts with the 'Star Wars' example given in the rulebook.

I am inclined to use the "upper" rule (if expresses condition, so the card stays). But it seems that it would be the wrong way because these cards are then hard to dispose of.

These cards bother me:
- KITCHEN DEBATES
- NORAD
- OUR MAN IN TEHRAN
- STAR WARS


Thanks a lot.

Edit: i forgot to mention that i have the Deluxe version from GMT Games if it's necessary
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This is how we play it (and I believe I'm playing it right, but I'm no authorithy on the subject)


KITCHEN DEBATES:
When the US has less BG's, the card is returned to the discard pile (and reusable in an other round)

NORAD:
The card is always played for the event, but the event only kicks in when the US controls canada. Never returned to the discard pile unless played by the US for OPS

OUR MAN IN TEHRAN:
When the US isn't controlling any country (shame on him), the card is discarded for another round.

STAR WARS: not a removable event anyway. When the US isn't ahead on the Space Race, the event doesn't occur, otherwise it does (and the USSR normally looses).

Works for us. When I play somebody who I haven't played before, I state this aswell. Normally an agreement is settled on the above terms.

Cheers, Haring
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Rastislav Bodi
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thanks for your reply

it seems that you are following the 'Star Wars' card example given in the rulebook. discard because the condition is not true (btw, there is the asterisk and the text 'Remove from play if used as an event.' on my Star Wars card).

and ofcourse, NORAD is an ongoing event (didn't notice when writing my post)

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Marc-Andre Blanchet
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For a card with an asterisk(*), do all these steps in order:

1. The card is played as an event OR the event triggers from OPS play of an opponent's event.
2. If there is a restriction on the event (NATO without a played Warsaw Pact or Marshall Plan, for example.) then the card is discarded.
3. If there is no restriction but the card does not change the board state, the card is still removed from play.

Star Wars is the only card (thinking on my feet) that restricts play on board state.
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Jack Smith
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I just care about one condition and that is 'does the card trigger?' If it does then it is removed as played no matter what the change in board state is. If it does not trigger it goes to the discard pile after Ops use.

Star wars does not trigger therefore it is not removed. The Quote 4 they use for star wars is badly worded, they should have said 'did not trigger' not 'no effect'

Kitchen debates only triggers if the US control more battleground countries. If they do not the card does not trigger and it is returned to the discard pile.

If there was a card that said something like 'Add 3 Influence to any country you control in Asia' the card will trigger even if there was no such country and will then be removed from the game. The fact the card may have no effect is irrelevant, the event has no unmet condition to stop it being triggered.

Their use of the word 'trigger' is wasted and a bit confusing.
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leizeQ wrote:
thanks for your reply

it seems that you are following the 'Star Wars' card example given in the rulebook. discard because the condition is not true (btw, there is the asterisk and the text 'Remove from play if used as an event.' on my Star Wars card).

and ofcourse, NORAD is an ongoing event (didn't notice when writing my post)



I must have a a short circuit when I was thinking about Star Wars..Anyway. If the US is not ahead, the event can't happen and therefor is discarded (and not removed).

In my opinion a pre-requesite is an "if" with another card (If Marshall plan is in effect, then you can play Nato as event), where as "if" are pre-requsites for board-related issues (more BG's, ahead on the SR, controlling Canada).

Cheers, Haring
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David Lanphear
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ANSWERS to your questions from Ananda Gupta on Consimworld.

edit:

Found the same answers HERE on BGG in a similar discussion to this thread.



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Harold Coleman
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StocktonDave wrote:
ANSWERS to your questions from Ananda Gupta on Consimworld.


Per this link, I have removed my post. Sorry for the confusion if others read it.
 
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Rastislav Bodi
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Quote:
ANSWERS to your questions from Ananda Gupta on Consimworld.

edit:

Found the same answers HERE on BGG in a similar discussion to this thread.


ah, great ... i have been looking in the rules section from my phone app and this one wasn't there

thanks a lot
 
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Evgeny Reznikov
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hgcoleman wrote:
StocktonDave wrote:
ANSWERS to your questions from Ananda Gupta on Consimworld.


Per this link, I have removed my post. Sorry for the confusion if others read it.


Please don't do this again.
If you want, you can always edit the post and link to the answers. Deleting posts hurts the value of this forum as a reference.
 
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Harold Coleman
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azuredarkness wrote:
hgcoleman wrote:
StocktonDave wrote:
ANSWERS to your questions from Ananda Gupta on Consimworld.


Per this link, I have removed my post. Sorry for the confusion if others read it.


Please don't do this again.
If you want, you can always edit the post and link to the answers. Deleting posts hurts the value of this forum as a reference.


In this case, my post was totally in error would have incited many refuting responses from others, thus distracting from the correct answer to the OP's question and deteriorating the discussion, so deleting it was the correct thing to do.
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