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Christopher
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After playing my first session (with some rules errors) and loosing too many quads.... (I don't want to talk about it), I have the urge to read more about this conflict in general and specifically about the actions in Fallujah in detail.

I've downloaded the original article on which Laurent based his core mechanics and design.

But I would like te read one (or more) books about it. I am looking for recommendations for two different types of books:
1. witness-records, diary, ... (preferably auto-biographical)
2. more historical checked and verified work with a broader scope.

thank you in advance!

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Matthew Jones
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teufen wrote:
After playing my first session (with some rules errors) and loosing too many quads.... (I don't want to talk about it), I have the urge to read more about this conflict in general and specifically about the actions in Fallujah in detail.

I've downloaded the original article on which Laurent based his core mechanics and design.

But I would like te read one (or more) books about it. I am looking for recommendations for two different types of books:
1. witness-records, diary, ... (preferably auto-biographical)
2. more historical checked and verified work with a broader scope.

thank you in advance!



Bing West authored No True Glory. I highly suggest that one.

Edit:
Sorry, I realized in rereading my post that some additional info might be in order. No True Glory is a wider scope book. Bing West was a marine in Vietnam and has authored several books about Iraq from the Marine perspective. No True Glory is his assessment of the Marine action in Fallujah.

Because of Bing's service in Vietnam and his later service in Washington as Assistant Secretary of Defense under Reagan, he has unique access to both places of importance, DC and the Marines in Fallujah.

I recommend this book highly.
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O B
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No True Glory is a great high level overview, covers some of the politics, and matches the Marine focus that Phantom Fury has. Not a ton of detailed descriptions of individual engagements.
http://amzn.com/0553383191

House to House is probably the most amazing war memoir I have read. It's all personal firsthand experience of combat, no overview of the battle at all. It's not the Marines but this is actually interesting to contrast the tactics used in Phantom Fury.
http://amzn.com/1416596607
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Matthew Jones
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adorablerocket wrote:

House to House is probably the most amazing war memoir I have read. It's all personal firsthand experience of combat, no overview of the battle at all. It's not the Marines but this is actually interesting to contrast the tactics used in Phantom Fury.
http://amzn.com/1416596607


I might have to give this a second go round. I didn't like it the first time as it struck me as SSG Bellavia tooting his own horn. I didn't like the way he portrayed the insurgency fighters as idiots. I felt they too, whether you agree with their politics or not, deserved more respect as fighters than he gave them. I get talking "smack" about the other guys, but I don't feel there was much respect there. But like I said, I'm willing to give it a second read through, see if I missed something the first time.

A second book on my to-read list, at the platoon level is We Were One: Shoulder to Shoulder with the Marines Who Took Fallujah by Patrick K O'Donnell.
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Kev.
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http://www.mca-marines.org/node/9384/results

poll on a marine .org site for best book re PF.
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Kev.
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http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=496361502121

new dawn
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adorablerocket wrote:
No True Glory is a great high level overview, covers some of the politics, and matches the Marine focus that Phantom Fury has. Not a ton of detailed descriptions of individual engagements.
http://amzn.com/0553383191

House to House is probably the most amazing war memoir I have read. It's all personal firsthand experience of combat, no overview of the battle at all. It's not the Marines but this is actually interesting to contrast the tactics used in Phantom Fury.
http://amzn.com/1416596607


House to house what a read. The guy running across an open space carrying a battery...wasted....then they found the whole house/block was stuffed full of explosives...the battery for wiring up the charges...the fight on the rooftop with gunmen coming in from all sides...and knife fight in the house...so similar to Saving Private Ryan...amazing book. IMHO
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Christopher
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thanks every-one for the recommendations, I'll take a closer look to each of these books!

 
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Kev.
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Also for a taste of the action: http://blog.richardslowry.com/?tag=operation-iraqi-freedom
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Sigrdrifa wrote:
adorablerocket wrote:

House to House is probably the most amazing war memoir I have read. It's all personal firsthand experience of combat, no overview of the battle at all. It's not the Marines but this is actually interesting to contrast the tactics used in Phantom Fury.
http://amzn.com/1416596607


I might have to give this a second go round. I didn't like it the first time as it struck me as SSG Bellavia tooting his own horn. I didn't like the way he portrayed the insurgency fighters as idiots. I felt they too, whether you agree with their politics or not, deserved more respect as fighters than he gave them.


I did think there was a bit more self absorption and personal history than you usually get in these kinds of memoirs, but given how intimately and honestly he went into what he was thinking and feeling while in combat it didn't bother me. I also notice that memoirs tend to be much more self absorbed than the overview histories, so if you've been digesting a lot of overview histories you may suffer "memoir shock". :-)

That aside I really didn't get the sense at all that he didn't respect the insurgents or regarded them as idiots. In fact don't think I've seen that in any of the memoirs or histories I've read. I do recall a strong sense that Fallujah could have been much worse if the insurgents had been better organized and motivated to use the prepared positions and ambush points, but I saw that more as a criticism of their command and control than a slight against their individual bravery or intelligence. Universally across Iraq and Afghanistan I've seen a theme of large numbers of untrained insurgents utilizing very naive tactics - "charging into the coalition forces'guns" as it were, which I read as failure of training not of character.
 
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Kev.
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That aside I really didn't get the sense at all that he didn't respect the insurgents or regarded them as idiots. In fact don't think I've seen that in any of the memoirs or histories I've read. I do recall a strong sense that Fallujah could have been much worse if the insurgents had been better organized and motivated to use the prepared positions and ambush points, but I saw that more as a criticism of their command and control than a slight against their individual bravery or intelligence. Universally across Iraq and Afghanistan I've seen a theme of large numbers of untrained insurgents utilizing very naive tactics - "charging into the coalition forces'guns" as it were, which I read as failure of training not of character.[/q]

-I'd agree in fact I've seen several references to the admiration the Marines had for the bravery of insurgents recovering wounded men etc.

Certainly no respect for tactics of theirs, nor their cause. when most of the deaths are from snipes, 'rounding the corner' or ieds or bushwhacking that would tend to color the perception too.
 
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Matthew Jones
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adorablerocket wrote:
Sigrdrifa wrote:
adorablerocket wrote:

House to House is probably the most amazing war memoir I have read. It's all personal firsthand experience of combat, no overview of the battle at all. It's not the Marines but this is actually interesting to contrast the tactics used in Phantom Fury.
http://amzn.com/1416596607


I might have to give this a second go round. I didn't like it the first time as it struck me as SSG Bellavia tooting his own horn. I didn't like the way he portrayed the insurgency fighters as idiots. I felt they too, whether you agree with their politics or not, deserved more respect as fighters than he gave them.


I did think there was a bit more self absorption and personal history than you usually get in these kinds of memoirs, but given how intimately and honestly he went into what he was thinking and feeling while in combat it didn't bother me. I also notice that memoirs tend to be much more self absorbed than the overview histories, so if you've been digesting a lot of overview histories you may suffer "memoir shock". :-)


Considering the comments on this thread from some folks whose opinions I respect, I've re-ordered it and will give it a second read. Try to at the very least try to pinpoint what rubbed me the wrong way about the book, if not reverse that opinion.

I read it in hardback back in 08 when it first came out. I'm left with my impressions of it and without straight quotes from it (having donated my book away to the local library), so I'm willing to, as I said, give it a second go.

I guess I compare my memories of House to House with my more recent reading of Company Commander by Macdonald. I felt like you could see Cpt. Macdonald struggling to find a point to some of the things he's being asked or forced to do, whereas I feel SSG Bellavia just tells what happened, without spending a whole lot of time wondering in print if it was the right call or not, whether he could have done something differently. I don't feel as though I came to the end of House to House and knew Bellavia better as a person. Perhaps that's what's off-putting to me.

I'll bump it to the top of the list when it comes in.
 
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Christopher
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tc237 wrote:
Are there Marine Corps AAR's or something similar to the links I posted above?


There is the article where PF is based upon, a link can be found here: Re: There was a link to the original article this was designed from>
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Neal Durando
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There was an UNCLASS AAR document circulating a few years ago. Very detailed. It seems to have been withdrawn from the internet. I did have the honor of doing a couple of years' teaching with the help and support of a company commander from 1/3.
 
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M. Kirschenbaum
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Dexter Filkins has a harrowing chapter on Fallujah in The Forever War.
 
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Christopher
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My parents went to the US last week, and they got me "No True Glory". They also looked for "New Dawn", but weren't able to get a hand on it. I still think I'll get it online or so.

Will start reading No True Glory now
 
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