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Eclipse» Forums » Rules

Subject: Rolling to hit in combat seems...weird rss

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Robert
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I've played D&D and other RPGs for many years so the to-hit system in Eclipse seems weird to me (obviously, I'm aware that D&D and Eclipse are very different games). Let me see if I have this straight.

If I'm rolling to hit with my Cruisers, for example, against multiple ship types, I first roll the appropriate dice. Then, I assign the dice to the various ship types taking into account their shields. For example, I might miss an enemy Dreadnought with a 5 but that same 5 will hit an enemy Interceptor so I could (and should) assign that roll to the Interceptor. Is this correct?

In D&D, you pick the target first and THEN roll to hit. For example, I have to choose to attack the troll or orc and then roll the dice. I can't roll first and then assign the roll to whichever target I'm able to hit.

 
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Robert
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lobato wrote:
For example, I might miss an enemy Dreadnought with a 5 but that same 5 will hit an enemy Interceptor so I could (and should) assign that roll to the Interceptor. Is this correct?


Let me preemptively say that I know it takes a total of 6 to hit. So let's say I have a +1 computer and I roll a 5. The Dreadnought has -1 shields and the Interceptor has no shields.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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One of many, many ways this is not like D&D.

I don't see any reason you couldn't play this way as a variant. I don't think it would break the game in any big way. Shields become more valuable but that's about it.
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Sofa Chair
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Do anyone else's dice seem to be sixes far less than 1/6 times?
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Dan Bigmore
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I think the rulebook just gives the most efficient method, which greatly simplifies battles. But there are examples on the forums of people doing it the way you're used to, so it's no big deal to house rule it.
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Gunther Schmidl
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They're really REALLY smart missiles.
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Purple Paladin

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The dice are designed to roll higher with missle attacks. The tiles also are designed to be more likely to draw empty systems with players that are hypersensative to luck in games.

I suggest putting only the "1" RP tokens in the bag and never attack anything (let your opponent do the attacking). Watch the facial expression after each draw. If your really bad, pretend to draw 4s when you draw yours.
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Jeremy Diachuk
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Well, this isn't quite like in D&D where you're simulating a six-second space of time and using your roll to simulate your character's attempts to overcome a particular opponent (and as a result, using up their "luck" or what have you, as even a blow in D&D isn't necessarily supposed to represent slicing into your foe).

In Eclipse, space battles (are supposed to) take place over many, many years. Having the rounds of combat simulates this long-term exchange, and as such it is necessarily abstracted a little bit. As such, rolling and then assigning hits just means that your computer systems and strategic command were able to both predict enemy movement in the hex and land blows against the enemy fleet where they were most effective (representing the selecting of targets), as well as allowing the attack to prevail more often (reflecting the decreased chance to miss).

I think it works well enough and is certainly a lot quicker. Otherwise, some players would want to roll each die individually, and then you have to get into the "Do you roll them sequentially, or decide beforehand and then roll them all simultaneously? If the latter, how do you keep track if you forgot when rolling multiple dice?" sorts of arguments... I'd rather keep a moderately-abstracted game moderately-abstract. It's flavorful enough without getting bogged down by these kinds of nitty gritty details that made combat in D&D sometimes more of a chore than a roleplaying game.
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Agent J
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He's looking real sharp in his 1940's fedora. He's got nerves of steel, an iron will, and several other metal-themed attributes. His fur is water tight and he's always up for a fight.
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It's actually not as weird as Nexus Ops or Axis and Allies, where the DEFENDER chooses who they lost...
 
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Antti Autio
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Like all the elements in the game, combat is an abstraction, so there is not much sense in trying to find detailed thematic explanations as to why it "should" be done one way or the other. The design decision was first and foremost usability / game flow based one.

The reason the rules were written this way (the player who fires assigns hits, they are allowed to use their rolls as effectively as possible) to keep combat as quick and deadly as possible and not take too much time and focus away from the other elements of gameplay.

However, if you enjoy rolling a lot of dice and don't mind adding time and a further element of uncertainty to combat, then by all means, use a variant where you pick your targets before rolling. It won't break the game and will likely fit your preferred gaming style better. I hear some groups are doing this and like it that way.
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Eirik Johnsbråten
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lobato wrote:
If I'm rolling to hit with my Cruisers, for example, against multiple ship types, I first roll the appropriate dice. Then, I assign the dice to the various ship types taking into account their shields. For example, I might miss an enemy Dreadnought with a 5 but that same 5 will hit an enemy Interceptor so I could (and should) assign that roll to the Interceptor. Is this correct?

Yes.
 
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Volker S.
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We played it the other way around first as well since it IS weird and we somehow missed that rule.

But if you can live with the abstraction it speeds up the game a lot
 
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stu ma
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Rolling first then see what you could have targeted (due to flying manovers, counter measures etc.) So you determine what you could shoot at. Besides this, it speeds up the game A LOT! Otherwise you get less effective killing without more fun.
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Jason Cawley
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Yep, that is the reason for the rule. Instead of minutes of Analysis Paralysis as the shooter tries to pre-emptively min-max out his shooting assignments and doing a lot of probabilistic branching trees in his head, the game simply lets him assign the dice for maximum effect after he sees them. The result is no thought is required before rolling - just roll 'em. Then the process of using them is pretty darn simple, because lots miss regardless and you can see exactly what your options are in terms of enemy ships killed. Way, way less AP, faster combat, and a quicker game.
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Dan Moore
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Pelloth wrote:
Do anyone else's dice seem to be sixes far less than 1/6 times?


I don't care how many stat geeks tell you otherwise, I want to testify that It Happens. My family bought the random draw deck for Catan after too too many times being screwed by the dice.

The only way you can know if you're being screwed is by tallying results; we did this and that pushed us over the edge for the draw deck. Hell, you could cut to the chase and make your own, use 36 playing cards and mark them . . . but with multiple die rolls . . .
 
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Pelloth wrote:
Do anyone else's dice seem to be sixes far less than 1/6 times?
I have the opposite problem...but only when my opponents handle the dice it seems.
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Mikko Saari
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catmando wrote:
I don't care how many stat geeks tell you otherwise, I want to testify that It Happens. My family bought the random draw deck for Catan after too too many times being screwed by the dice.


And now you're all being screwed by the cards? How do you use the cards? Do you have a shuffle card in the pack, or do you go through the pack then shuffle?

I don't know, uneven distributions of results can be annoying, but I think very uniform distribution would also be boring in the long run. Games with very uneven distributions tend to be memorable, and Catan games in particular are defined by the streaks from dice, as in "oh, that was the game where 8s came up all the time and nobody rolled 6". Of course the player who built on the six will be screwed, but it's probability and you shouldn't be able to rely on it...

But I give you that - those cheap dice can be pretty far from random. I've never had dice bad enough to notice, but perhaps you might want to invest in better dice. Get some precision dice, and you can be sure the results are honest.
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Henrik Johansson
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Helpfull thread. Reading the rules I think it was a bit unclear as to the order of rolling and assigning hits. It could be that I just assumed it should be the other way around and there fore had problems enterpreting the meaning.

Perhaps it could go into the FAQ?
 
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