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Subject: Clarification on the purchasing of Civilization cards... rss

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Brandon Butcher
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I was just talking with the folks at Rio Grande Games, and they were saying that the way they intend the purchasing of Civilization cards is that each jewel-like icon above the card spot represents a different resource type required for the purchase of that card.

Ergo-- when attempting to purchase a 4-jewel card, it requires a wood, brick, stone, and gold ... not 4 wood (or otherwise lesser purchases)

Just thought I'd point this out since I've seen the cheaper method being described as the 'right way' in other spots on this rules forum.

This, according to the folks at Rio Grande Games in NM anyway.

-B

P.S. This would mean that the purchase of a level-4 card is equivalent to 18 potential points unrealized elsewhere. Plan accordingly.
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Pedro Pereira
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That's not how the original German rules are though...
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BButcher wrote:
I was just talking with the folks at Rio Grande Games, and they were saying that the way they intend the purchasing of Civilization cards is that each jewel-like icon above the card spot represents a different resource type required for the purchase of that card.

Ergo-- when attempting to purchase a 4-jewel card, it requires a wood, brick, stone, and gold ... not 4 wood (or otherwise lesser purchases)

Just thought I'd point this out since I've seen the cheaper method being described as the 'right way' in other spots on this rules forum.

This, according to the folks at Rio Grande Games in NM anyway.

-B

P.S. This would mean that the purchase of a level-4 card is equivalent to 18 potential points unrealized elsewhere. Plan accordingly.

I have never heard of this before...

The rule book from Rio Grande seems to suggest you can pay whatever you want:

Stone Age rules from Rio Grande wrote:
The player pays the number of resurces shown above the card to the supply from his player board and takes the card. Which resources the player pays (from wood, brick, stone, and/or gold) is up to him and what he has: usually it will be wood and/or brick, but he can never use food.


I think I'll keep playing rules as written. Seems balanced as it is.
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Fraser
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BButcher wrote:
I was just talking with the folks at Rio Grande Games, and they were saying that the way they intend the purchasing of Civilization cards is that each jewel-like icon above the card spot represents a different resource type required for the purchase of that card.

Ergo-- when attempting to purchase a 4-jewel card, it requires a wood, brick, stone, and gold ... not 4 wood (or otherwise lesser purchases)

Just thought I'd point this out since I've seen the cheaper method being described as the 'right way' in other spots on this rules forum.

This, according to the folks at Rio Grande Games in NM anyway.

-B

P.S. This would mean that the purchase of a level-4 card is equivalent to 18 potential points unrealized elsewhere. Plan accordingly.

I suggest you go back to the Rio Grande Games people you were talking to and get them to check the rules because that is not correct.
'Stone Age rules RGG edition' wrote:
The player pays the number of resurces(sic) shown above the card to the supply from his player board and takes the card. Which resources the player pays (from wood, brick, stone and/or gold) is up to him and what he has: usually it will be wood and/or brick, but he can never use food

As quite explicitly stated in the rules you can pay with what resources you want to pay with.
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brian
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This wouldn't be the first time RGG screwed up the rules, especially in this game.
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Chris Lawson
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BButcher wrote:
I was just talking with the folks at Rio Grande Games, and they were saying that the way they intend the purchasing of Civilization cards is that each jewel-like icon above the card spot represents a different resource type required for the purchase of that card.

Ergo-- when attempting to purchase a 4-jewel card, it requires a wood, brick, stone, and gold ... not 4 wood (or otherwise lesser purchases)

Just thought I'd point this out since I've seen the cheaper method being described as the 'right way' in other spots on this rules forum.

This, according to the folks at Rio Grande Games in NM anyway.

-B

P.S. This would mean that the purchase of a level-4 card is equivalent to 18 potential points unrealized elsewhere. Plan accordingly.

Well, Jay is one of the game designers, so it seems a bit odd that "the folks" at RGG should say this.

Both the English and German rules specifically state that resources used can be of any sort and "usually it will be wood and/or brick". But I guess even with that it could be interpreted as meaning they have to be of different types.
 
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Fraser
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xris wrote:

Both the English and German rules specifically state that resources used can be of any sort and "usually it will be wood and/or brick". But I guess even with that it could be interpreted as meaning they have to be of different types.
Even with by best Rules Lawyer Hat I could not possibly twist what is written in the rules to meaning that the four resource card must be paid with one wood and one brick and one stone and one gold and no other combination. cool
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brian
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xris wrote:
Well, Jay is one of the game designers...

Since when? This was designed by Bernd Brunnhofer. He went under the pseudonym of "Michael Tummelhofer" to give thanks to Jay for a good economic partnership. But it had nothing to do with the game's design.
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Randall Bart
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ColtsFan76 wrote:
xris wrote:
Well, Jay is one of the game designers...

Since when? This was designed by Bernd Brunnhofer. He went under the pseudonym of "Michael Tummelhofer" to give thanks to Jay for a good economic partnership. But it had nothing to do with the game's design.

It's not clear what the name Michael Tummelhofer means. Officially, Bernd Brunnhofer chose that name "out of respect" for Michael Musica and Jay Tummelson. Unoffically I heard that Brunnhofer said that if Michael and Jay were going to keep meddling with his designs, he didn't want his own name as sole designer.
 
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Brandon Butcher
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Alls I'm sayin' is that's what Jay Tummelson told me directly when he said "Yes. That is the way we play."

My wife and I were arguing discussing this rule the last few days.

Anyone have the quote out of the German rules?

Quote:
The player pays the number of resurces(sic) shown above the card to the supply from his player board and takes the card. Which resources the player pays (from wood, brick, stone and/or gold) is up to him and what he has: usually it will be wood and/or brick, but he can never use food



To me, when I read the rules (and the quote above), it doesn't explicitly state that he can pay multiple resources of the same type for a card. It doesn't say that you can't either. The exact same icons are used on the hut cards and DO explicitly say that you need to put them in different types for each jewel icon present.

Not telling anyone they must play differently. Thought the information would be helpful.

-B
 
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brian
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What Jay is saying (unless he misunderstood the question) is contradictory to what the iconography of the game has established. The wild resources symbol ("gem" if you prefer) is wild. If you look at the slot that has 2 of these, it is the same iconography as is on the Civ card that has 2 of these symbols. That card is called "2 resources of the player’s choice" and specifically mentions that this can either be two different resources or two of the same.

Applying this back to the purchase price of Civ cards, it is again 2 of the same or 2 different. Extending that out means you can pay 3 of the same or 3 different and 4 of the same or 4 different in any combination you want.

If it was meant to be as Jay plays, then the symbols should have mimicked the Huts where it would have a large symbol with a 3 on it, for example, and then 3 smaller symbols in parenthesis.

I really don't see how the rules can be taken any other way. You MUST pay the number of resources and you MAY choose what they are. The structure of the next sentence says "and/or" when listing your options. So you could pay all wood (if you just use the "or" in that situation).
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Chris Lawson
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BButcher wrote:
Alls I'm sayin' is that's what Jay Tummelson told me directly when he said "Yes. That is the way we play."

Fair enough, that just means that Jay is using a house-rule.

It is a bit different from saying "that the way they intend the purchasing of Civilization cards ..."
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Brandon Butcher
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xris wrote:
Fair enough, that just means that Jay is using a house-rule.

It is a bit different from saying "that the way they intend the purchasing of Civilization cards ..."


The latter statement is a from a direct conversation, and 'they' refers to Jay, as coming from his mouth as 'the' intention. The former statement is from a follow-up where I asked him to re-clarify his position in light of there being a discrepancy.

In response to asking how it is to be played, the answer was "Yes" and "No" to the two options, the "Yes" being for the different resources for each gem icon.

In response to indicating the existence of a discrepancy if this were the rule, the response was "That is how we play".

Take from it what you wish (as you are). But both statements are accurate, and not reported to shade one way or another

-B
 
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brian
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The point Chris is making is Jay isn't playing by the rules as written. If this is to be the way it is played, then it should be issued as errata. If not, then Jay is playing by house rules.
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Brandon Butcher
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No worries...

We have been playing it with any resource anyway... We just sit around the table fighting over wood a lot, so I figured I'd drop a line over to Jay about it.
 
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Steve Duff
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It's definitely a Jay house rule.

Look at the symbol - four colours in a frame, the colours perfectly matching each of the resources in the game. Any one resource matches one symbol.

If there was any intent anywhere that each resource symbol required a different kind of resource, there would have been *something* in the rulebook about it. There's literally nothing in the rules that would lead you to even question "gee, does this sentence mean I can't use 2 stone or 2 wood?"
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John K
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BButcher wrote:
No worries...

We have been playing it with any resource anyway... We just sit around the table fighting over wood a lot, so I figured I'd drop a line over to Jay about it.


It does say in the Tactical suggestions section of the Civilization cards rule page to "Block" cheaper resources like wood. The "wood" fighting sounds kinda normal.

I agree with the idea that if you were supposed to use a combination of different resources, the symbols showing the cost would be like the the building cost symbols

like 4 with 4 "any resource" symbols inside some brackets.

However, if you do play where you need to have several different types, it would make people go for other resources a bit more. I don't think it would break the game, it might make it a little more interesting.
 
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Ron Z
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The rules are not ambiguous on this. They clearly state 'Which resources the player pays (from wood, brick, stone and/or gold) is up to him and what he has...'. I don't know how this could be interpreted in any other way.
I would think that on Yucata.de where hundreds of online games of Stone Age are played there would have been some comments about the rules being wrong. There are none.
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Todd Palmer
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The wild symbol on buildings indicates different required resources. The card that requires 4 resources of 4 different types is usually a joke with our group because the value is not wild. It's always worth 18. It's not a stretch to say that the four different wild symbols used for the 4th card slot would indicate different resources required. The rules don't say that, though. Would definitely change the game up a lot.
 
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Steve Duff
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toddly wrote:
The wild symbol on buildings indicates different required resources.
...
It's not a stretch to say that the four different wild symbols used for the 4th card slot would indicate different resources required. The rules don't say that, though.


The wild symbol never indicates "different". It indicates quantity only, and the rules are very clear on that.

What indicates "different resources" are the ( ) symbols. 4 total resources of 2 different kinds is represented by **** (**). Even in this case, the wild symbols still only represent numbers 4 and 2, the ( ) represents "different".

If the card slots needed different resources, they would be depicted as (****), not ****.

All this has already been covered above. It's a Jay house rule.
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Byron L Jones
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the actual rule sounds broken as to have people clamouring mountains of wood to buy any civ card they want on the cheap. it makes more sense in a boardgamey way to have it cost four different kinds when it says ****. otherwise it should have had single symbol with a number over it like the building cards.
The building cards represent different kinds of resource that must be provided as ****
, I don't know why the civ cards should be any different( other than the rules being intially created/printed wrong and everybody deciding to just go along with it cause 'teh rules must be infallible and are not broken.' )

I house rule it as Jay does cause it makes more sense and forces people to gather proper resources rather than simply hoarding wood and being rewarded for pig-headedness.
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BlandBoy wrote:
I house rule it as Jay does cause it makes more sense and forces people to gather proper resources rather than simply hoarding wood and being rewarded for pig-headedness.

That is usually not the sequence of words when "Jay" and "pig-headedness" are in the same sentence. Jay is the last person I would look to for rules clarifications. His track record with this and Carcassonne.
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Carsten Jorgensen
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I don't see where the rules have been printed wrong? The buldings have the resources with a number in them to tell how many resoures are needed - but what tells how many kind is needed is the (**) on the huts (in different versions). The reason numbers have been used on the huts and not on the board is most likely just because of limeted space on the huts.

Do you also rule that the civ card which gives two resources must be different ones? It's the same symbol as is used above the places for civ cards.

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Josh Chen
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I will play the way it is written in the rule book. Stone Age is a long game to play already and I can't imagine playing with Jay's house rule. Using wood to cash in for cards makes the game slightly faster than different resources.
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Byron L Jones
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It makes sense to me to have civ cards to the left become "cheaper" as ones to the right get bought up first. Having it get merely 1 wood cheaper seems ridiculous. You could easily fund your whole tribe indefinitely on wood alone...

I can play the way it is in the rules but from a gameplay/theme perspective, the house rules are better.
 
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