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Subject: Who goes first? rss

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Rory Rickshaw
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In the explore phase, who draws first? I would think this would matter given the random draws. Similarly, who goes first when consuming goods (I understand the VP chips keep going beyond 0 until the round is over?).
 
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Steve Zamborsky
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If the draws are random off the top of the deck and the deck is hidden, why does it matter what order people draw?

Consuming is done simultaneously. There are extra VP chits in the box to use in the event the VP supply is depleted to make up the difference; no one is prevented from obtaining VPs this way, it's a trigger to denote that this is the last turn.
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Dave
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Random is random - why does it matter who draws first?

VP chips don't run out. The pool does, which indicates the end of the game, but everyone gets to consume and get the appropriate number of chips. So it doesn't matter who goes first either during consume.
 
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The order matters during explore if the deck is close to being reshuffled. If you suspect that a card you've been fishing for is in the draw deck, you want to draw from it rather than from the reshuffled deck.

The order also matters during the consume phase if players have a choice of either running out the VP pool this round or not. The person going last has better control and/or knowledge of whether the game continues for one more round.

In all cases where order is important, it is resolved in ascending number of start world index (Old Earth = 0, Eps Eri = 1, etc.)

This is all described in the base rulebook, by the way.
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Derry Salewski
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Whatever the rules say, which I forget, it makes sense to just go with the lowest numbered starting planet as the starting player (which is a rule for something isn't it?)

Some people would want the cards to be drawn in the correct order, just based on how they view the universe working. If it doesn't take extra time, it doens't cost anyone anything to let them.

And if you have two people at a standoff waiting to see if the game is going to end while chosing to consume goods for poits or cards or something, it might make the game GO quicker by having a policy.

When I played with my brother, he always wanted to draw cards first.
 
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scifiantihero wrote:
Whatever the rules say, which I forget, it makes sense to just go with the lowest numbered starting planet as the starting player (which is a rule for something isn't it?)


That's exactly what the rules say, and they are very clear on this point. Lowest-numbered starting world goes first, then play proceeds clockwise from there. (My previous description may not have been as clear.)
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Derry Salewski
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rbelikov wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Whatever the rules say, which I forget, it makes sense to just go with the lowest numbered starting planet as the starting player (which is a rule for something isn't it?)


That's exactly what the rules say, and they are very clear on this point. Lowest-numbered starting world goes first, then play proceeds clockwise from there. (My previous description may not have been as clear.)


Real clear! I was typing at the same time.
 
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Dave
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rbelikov wrote:
The order matters during explore if the deck is close to being reshuffled. If you suspect that a card you've been fishing for is in the draw deck, you want to draw from it rather than from the reshuffled deck.

Two problems with this. First, if you're really getting to the point where you're exhausting the deck, you're playing it wrong. Second, how on Earth would you come to 'suspect' this? How would you know the card hasn't been used for goods, since discards are face down?

I guess a better argument would be that you discarded a card you now need, so you'd rather draw from the reshuffled deck, but even that is quite a stretch IMHO.

Quote:
The order also matters during the consume phase if players have a choice of either running out the VP pool this round or not. The person going last has better control and/or knowledge of whether the game continues for one more round.

Very much unlikely. Since everyone must consume to the extent of their consume powers, it's a pretty rare occurrence that would make this possible. Also, if you need to take fewer vp chips than your tableau allows just to get another round, chances are you've already lost.

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In all cases where order is important, it is resolved in ascending number of start world index (Old Earth = 0, Eps Eri = 1, etc.)

This is all described in the base rulebook, by the way.

That does ring a bell! I don't remember ever having to use this rule, because the scenarios in which it would come into play are so obscure.
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Chris Ferejohn
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Lowest planet starts, then clockwise. Honestly we don't usually bother though.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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Mostly, play is simultaneous. When order does matter, go clockwise starting with the lowest numbered start world. See the rules, page 8, Timing section.
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mumu shanshi
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ScoobyG wrote:
if you're really getting to the point where you're exhausting the deck, you're playing it wrong.

Not necessarily - ever played base game with 4p?

ScoobyG wrote:
Since everyone must consume to the extent of their consume powers, it's a pretty rare occurrence that would make this possible.

Not as rare as you might think. And it can easily be the difference between winning and not winning, so there must be a very clear rule for this situation as you don't want a stand-off situation where neither side wants to consume first.

ScoobyG wrote:
if you need to take fewer vp chips than your tableau allows just to get another round, chances are you've already lost.

One possible scenario that comes quickly to mind:
a) If you consume on deficit spending, then I will consume this good on Trade League/New Vinland instead of Galactic Trendsetters and use the cards to build this 6-dev I am holding while you have no cash, but
b) If you do not consume on deficit spending, then I will consume this good on Trendsetters, exhaust the VP pool and beat you by 1 point.

Turn order all-important here.
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ScoobyG wrote:
Very much unlikely. Since everyone must consume to the extent of their consume powers, it's a pretty rare occurrence that would make this possible. Also, if you need to take fewer vp chips than your tableau allows just to get another round, chances are you've already lost.


It is possible with the cards that allow a player to discard cards from their hand for points. Still, I've never seen this situation happen during my 120 games so far.
 
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mumushanshi wrote:
ScoobyG wrote:
if you're really getting to the point where you're exhausting the deck, you're playing it wrong.

Not necessarily - ever played base game with 4p?

No only with first two expansions. But even then - the more players, the faster the race to finish the game (typically). And even in that case draw order is completely irrelevant, except maybe to satisfy someone's strange view of the universe, as someone put it earlier.

(snip)

Anyway, my point was that 1) turn order REALLY doesn't matter when it comes to drawing cards 2) ALMOST never matters when it comes to vp chips. The scenarios you list may happen, but they're very rare. They may occur though, hence the rule. But I would bet that most players (even those with lots of games under their belt) have never encountered such a situation.
 
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Michael Link
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In multiplayer, it's really not as rare as you think, Scooby.

In 2PA, I've only ever had one reshuffle with RvI (both players going heavy military with multiple I+5's) and I've never seen one with BoW--closest I've ever seen was about 20 cards left in the deck.

With 4+ players, though, you burn through cards very fast. I have played exactly one game of RvI with 6 players, and we reshuffled 3 times. No one played particularly poorly, either. It's just a function of the number of cards in the draw deck and number of cards in people's hands/tableaux/goods.

And it's in these big multiplayer games where consume order tends to matter. BoW makes this even more relevant as people have the choice to consume for prestige--I often want my opponent to have to decide first how to consume, so I can decide if I will have sole prestige lead by using my PGSC discard power, for example. The same can happen with explore: If me and an opponent both have a discard-for-prestige power, I'd like him to have to decide first if my own decision is particularly tough.

For the build phases, it is more obvious how order can matter. As a general rule, in my games, I usually act as "banker" and say aloud what each player, in order, is entitled to, otherwise people would miss stuff. One of my gaming buddies is particularly paranoid and insists on this method because he wants to ensure he gets the card the appropriate depth into the draw pile that he "should have" gotten.
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Christopher B
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When playing Poker: Just draw 3 random cards from the deck for the flop.
I would love to know what your friends would tell you...

All the card games I know have tighter rules then rftg. There you always have to give cards in the correct order. Why is this the case when it doesn't matter?
Nobody ever talked about that.

In race you arent't forcedto do it all the time and people start debating about whether it matters or not...

The only thing that counts is: it is in the rules
Play by the rules or don't.
 
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I am glad that the rules say "Mostly, play can and should be performed simultaneously.", and that there is also a rule for the relatively infrequent times that play order does matter. Makes for a faster and more fun game, thanks Tom!
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countcb wrote:
All the card games I know have tighter rules then rftg. There you always have to give cards in the correct order. Why is this the case when it doesn't matter?


Because random is random. If there were any deck-scouting/deck-ordering effects in the game it would absolutely matter. But there aren't, so it doesn't.

Random is random. There is no reason, at all, to formalize the order in which cards are distributed.
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Jerry Martin
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countcb wrote:
When playing Poker: Just draw 3 random cards from the deck for the flop.
I would love to know what your friends would tell you...

All the card games I know have tighter rules then rftg. There you always have to give cards in the correct order. Why is this the case when it doesn't matter?
Nobody ever talked about that.


This is because when you are playing poker you are playing for money. Having a prescribed way of dealing cards is important so there are no fights. Plus there is less chance of cheating.

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countcb wrote:
When playing Poker: Just draw 3 random cards from the deck for the flop.
I would love to know what your friends would tell you...



Probably something like "Why are we playing this stupid tedious game?!"
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Christopher B
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jeffcuetis wrote:

Probably something like "Why are we playing this stupid tedious game?!"


laugh haha

Quote:
Having a prescribed way of dealing cards is important so there are no fights.


Yeah, but there can be fights when one doesn't play for money as well.
That's the reason why there are rules.

The original poster asked what the rules are, and he got the answer from the rules. So question answered

That was what I wanted to say with my post. It doesn't matter whether it makes a difference or not. When it is in the rules one has to follow it.

OF COURSE when everybody agrees you can ignore the rules...

Don't know what I really want to say... so I'll just run away now

Enjoy your games everyone!
 
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Derry Salewski
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Also, 'random is random' doesn't mean a whole lot. You don't just take cards at random. The deck is randomized, but then it is set. Not as bad as Candyland, but the game will be different depending on the order people take cards in. BUT, the game would show you the exact same choices no matter how many times you sampled any particular draw order. There are many uses of the word random!

(Which is ironic considering how often it is misused (not here, just my pet peeve in general.))
 
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Nolan Lichti
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scifiantihero wrote:
You don't just take cards at random. The deck is randomized, but then it is set. Not as bad as Candyland, but the game will be different depending on the order people take cards in. BUT, the game would show you the exact same choices no matter how many times you sampled any particular draw order.

But you could take the cards at random. If it wasn't completely impractical, you could spread all the cards in the draw deck out and let the players pick (without looking) whichever cards they want. The only reason it's a stack of cards is because it's much easier to play with a stack than a messy pool of cards. There is no reason why the cards have to maintain the order established at the beginning of the game. The game functions exactly the same if you decide to reshuffle the draw deck (without adding any discards) halfway through the game.

Or you could play the game with tiles in a draw bag instead of a deck of cards. It's still the same game.

It really, really doesn't matter the order that players draw cards (if it's not going to exhaust the draw deck). Really.
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Paul Beakley
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scifiantihero wrote:
Also, 'random is random' doesn't mean a whole lot. You don't just take cards at random. The deck is randomized, but then it is set. Not as bad as Candyland, but the game will be different depending on the order people take cards in. BUT, the game would show you the exact same choices no matter how many times you sampled any particular draw order. There are many uses of the word random!

(Which is ironic considering how often it is misused (not here, just my pet peeve in general.))


"Then it is set". Okay. When does that matter? Under what circumstances can the unrevealed card order be manipulated or viewed to any player's advantage? Never in RFTG. The "set order of cards" is an uncollapsed quantum waveform until it is observed. It is never observed until a card is drawn. The cat is both alive and dead until you open the box.

Now if RFTG ever added a "view the top five cards in the draw pile and rearrange them in any order" type effect, bang, you now have a case for keeping the order formalized and untouched. Because now you've observed what's inside the stack.

Until the card order is observed, random is random. Sorry man. If you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself.
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PBeakley wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Also, 'random is random' doesn't mean a whole lot. You don't just take cards at random. The deck is randomized, but then it is set. Not as bad as Candyland, but the game will be different depending on the order people take cards in. BUT, the game would show you the exact same choices no matter how many times you sampled any particular draw order. There are many uses of the word random!

(Which is ironic considering how often it is misused (not here, just my pet peeve in general.))


"Then it is set". Okay. When does that matter? Under what circumstances can the unrevealed card order be manipulated or viewed to any player's advantage? Never in RFTG. The "set order of cards" is an uncollapsed quantum waveform until it is observed. It is never observed until a card is drawn. The cat is both alive and dead until you open the box.

Now if RFTG ever added a "view the top five cards in the draw pile and rearrange them in any order" type effect, bang, you now have a case for keeping the order formalized and untouched. Because now you've observed what's inside the stack.

Until the card order is observed, random is random. Sorry man. If you think otherwise, you're fooling yourself.
1: uncollapsed quantum waveforms are a myth. Even Erwin Schrodinger thought so. His point behind the "Schrodinger's cat" example is that it isn't possible for the cat to exist in 2 quantum states.

But I digress.

Drawing form the deck is, according to the rules, done in order based on homeworld numbers.

And, no. SOME of us are good at counting cards. We can remember what hasn't come up in the deck yet. It's true that it won't matter often, but it can come up while playing.
 
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Paul Beakley
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Please provide one example of when draw order matters. I can't think of one.
 
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