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Subject: Component Quality rss

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Jim Jackson

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One part of the components bothers me. That is the Decoy/Conceal counters. In my opinion Decoy and Conceal need their own counter instead of combining the two into one counter. Other than that issue, I think that the components are appropriate for a game of this price point. I know that a great number of wargamers like mounted maps, I prefer the maps in this game which are comparable to ASL starter kits. But, for the price of the game, there should be separate counters for Decoy and Conceal! Other than that complaint, good quality components for the price!







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Kurt R
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I would agree on separate decoy and conceal markers. It's been one of the little speed bumps in the learning curve of the game for me along with the hedgerows.
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Really? I'm surprised by that. I mean, you never see a decoy. It is always covered by a concealment counter. When it isn't, it is removed. I'm curious as to the reasoning.
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Kurt R
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Jim Krohn wrote:
Really? I'm surprised by that. I mean, you never see a decoy. It is always covered by a concealment counter. When it isn't, it is removed. I'm curious as to the reasoning.

I didn't get it at first that when the scenario gave you 4 (or 8 or whatever) D/C markers that they were decoys and that all units could potentially start the scenario with a D/C marker such that you might actually need 20+ D/C markers b/c some are decoys and some are conceal markers. I thought I was getting 4 markers to use as either decoys or conceal markers. Had they been separate, it would've been more clear as to what was what exactly.

Nothing major, and I was able to figure out the correct way to use them from the rules but it would've been just a bit clearer when looking at the scenario as to what exactly they were. When you're learning a new game every little bit helps.
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Jim Jackson

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True, you never see a decoy, but you do see a possible counter that either may be a decoy or a actual unit. I would just prefer that once a decoy has been exposed to be nothing, you can do away with the decoy counter. With one counter representing both, especially in scenarios with many units, I think that it can become confusing once a unit in cover leaves cover and then regains cover, just by looking at the decoy/concealment counter, a player may not remember whether it is a decoy or a previously exposed real threat? Of course it is up to the player to remember what real threats are and not decoys (which I guess could add to the fog of war element). I would just prefer, a concealment counter to note previously determined counters to be real and not a decoy. I just don't see this increasing the production cost that much.
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Dan Safee
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enzo622 wrote:

I didn't get it at first that when the scenario gave you 4 (or 8 or whatever) D/C markers that they were decoys and that all units could potentially start the scenario with a D/C marker such that you might actually need 20+ D/C markers b/c some are decoys and some are conceal markers.


I had the same thought when I first attempted to play it. A setup example in the first scenario would have helped.

Once you know what's going on though, it's easy to see it simply as an efficiency in the production of the game.
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John Di Ponio
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Jim Krohn wrote:
Really? I'm surprised by that. I mean, you never see a decoy. It is always covered by a concealment counter. When it isn't, it is removed. I'm curious as to the reasoning.


I was a bit confused about the use of counters until I played a couple of games and then it made sense that it was done the way it was done.
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Sean
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DanSafee wrote:
enzo622 wrote:

I didn't get it at first that when the scenario gave you 4 (or 8 or whatever) D/C markers that they were decoys and that all units could potentially start the scenario with a D/C marker such that you might actually need 20+ D/C markers b/c some are decoys and some are conceal markers.


I had the same thought when I first attempted to play it. A setup example in the first scenario would have helped.


I had the same experience trying to work through the first scenario. Additionally, the rules actually say "...Decoys may be covered with a Conceal marker like any other unit," as opposed to them always being covered by a Conceal marker.

In any case, the Conceal marker portion made sense. The Decoy marker part left me scratching my head.
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Jens Hoppe
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On the other hand, as a former ASL player, using the same counters for concealment and decoys struck me as the only natural thing to do...
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Justus Pendleton
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Falcon2 wrote:
a player may not remember whether it is a decoy


I don't understand this part. How does the other player know that it is a decoy yet it is still on the board? What is there to remember?

Quote:
I would just prefer that once a decoy has been exposed to be nothing, you can do away with the decoy counter.


That's exactly how it works, unless I'm missing something. Can you lay out a sequence of moves where a decoy counter is exposed to be nothing but isn't done away with?
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Jim Jackson

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For instance you have 4 infantry units and 4 decoys. You put 2 infantry units under a decoy counter, 2 infantry units you leave exposed, you put the other 2 decoy counters over other decoy markers.
Say a decoy unit is exposed, no doubt it is removed from the game, then one of your infantry units that is not concealed moves out of line of sight of an enemy, thus, receiving a decoy/conceal counter. If there are a lot of units in the game, you just can't look at the board and determine which units are concealed or which units maybe decoys, unless you remember which "real" unit received a marker due to moving out of LOS. Now, I know combining these two conditions can work, but, it just seems that since they really denote different things, there should be separate counters for each.
 
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Justus Pendleton
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Falcon2 wrote:
For instance you have 4 infantry units and 4 decoys. You put 2 infantry units under a decoy counter, 2 infantry units you leave exposed, you put the other 2 decoy counters over other decoy markers.


Your explanation isn't how the game works. ninja

If you have 4 infantry markers and 4 decoys then you have 8 markers on the board. Your setup instructions only have 6 markers on the board. You don't put decoys on top of infantry.

Quote:

Say a decoy unit is exposed, no doubt it is removed from the game, then one of your infantry units that is not concealed moves out of line of sight of an enemy, thus, receiving a decoy/conceal counter. If there are a lot of units in the game, you just can't look at the board and determine which units are concealed or which units maybe decoys, unless you remember which "real" unit received a marker due to moving out of LOS. Now, I know combining these two conditions can work, but, it just seems that since they really denote different things, there should be separate counters for each.


You're saying that a player may not remember that a Concealed marker may represent a unit they had previously seen? That doesn't seem like a flaw in the slightest to me.

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determine which units are concealed or which units maybe decoys


Decoys are Concealed, too. If a Decoy doesn't have a Concealed marker on top of it, you are doing something wrong.

So the enemy sees a bunch of markers with Concealed on top. Underneath may be a Decoy or it may be a real unit. The only way to know is to put effective fire on it or get LOS. Then you know it is a Decoy -- and the marker and its Concealed marker are removed from the board. Or you know it is isn't a Decoy because it wasn't removed from the board.

At least, all of that is my understanding.
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Justus is right.
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Jim Jackson

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I know, I should have said "infantry under a conceal counter". Instead of "infantry under a decoy counter". And I never said that this was a flaw, And of course it would not be much of a decoy if it was not concealed. I was not being critical, I was only stating that I would prefer separate counters for the two. I'm sure I will get used to the decoy/conceal counter in short order. Thanks for a great game!
 
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Jeffrey Smith
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Falcon2 wrote:
I know, I should have said "infantry under a conceal counter". Instead of "infantry under a decoy counter". And I never said that this was a flaw, And of course it would not be much of a decoy if it was not concealed. I was not being critical, I was only stating that I would prefer separate counters for the two. I'm sure I will get used to the decoy/conceal counter in short order. Thanks for a great game!
I don't think you are being critical. However, I think that you may still misunderstand how the decoys are allocated in a scenario.

If in your example a scenario gives one side 4 decoy markers, that means in addition to all other units, that player may also place 4 decoy counters on the map. Then the same player may place concealment counters (same counter but different function) on top of every unit that either has positive terrain modifier or is not in enemy LOS. The number of concealment counters is not limited in any way.

So yes, it is very hard to tell which stack is a decoy and which is a real unit, even after three decoys have been exposed. But that is the whole point.

I apologize in advance if my assessment of your understanding is wrong.

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Jim Jackson

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Right, I understand those rules. My example was poorly written, as it was done in haste. My main comment was just that I would prefer separate counters to signify the different functions. I mean there are approximately 45 white blank counters that come with the game. Thanks for your response.
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Jeffrey Smith
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Falcon2 wrote:
Right, I understand those rules. My example was poorly written, as it was done in haste. My main comment was just that I would prefer separate counters to signify the different functions. I mean there are approximately 45 white blank counters that come with the game. Thanks for your response.

Very good, my mistake. Maybe the post will be helpful to someone else!

And yes, I think everyone shares some share your sense of frustration with all those blank counters. Some people are using them as extra concealment counters. While not a perfect solution you could use the "real" decoy/concealment counters as decoys only, and the white counters as concealment only. Obviously the reverse wouldn't work very well!
 
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Bryan Martin
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I think the counters work perfectly the way they are, and I could care less that are blank counters on one sheet. They were supposed to go with another game anyway.
 
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Jeffrey Smith
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bunkfoss wrote:
I think the counters work perfectly the way they are, and I could care less that are blank counters on one sheet. They were supposed to go with another game anyway.
Yes, I know they were supposed to go to another game, but they didn't. Don't you think it would have been nice to have 45 more dedicated concealment counters instead of having to use the back of guns and tanks? That's all I mean by my comment.
 
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Bryan Martin
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jbbnbsmith wrote:
bunkfoss wrote:
I think the counters work perfectly the way they are, and I could care less that are blank counters on one sheet. They were supposed to go with another game anyway.
Yes, I know they were supposed to go to another game, but they didn't. Don't you think it would have been nice to have 45 more dedicated concealment counters instead of having to use the back of guns and tanks? That's all I mean by my comment.


No. I like the efficiency of design.

Would you rather they delayed releasing the game while they redesigned the countersheet?
 
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Jeffrey Smith
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bunkfoss wrote:
jbbnbsmith wrote:
bunkfoss wrote:
I think the counters work perfectly the way they are, and I could care less that are blank counters on one sheet. They were supposed to go with another game anyway.
Yes, I know they were supposed to go to another game, but they didn't. Don't you think it would have been nice to have 45 more dedicated concealment counters instead of having to use the back of guns and tanks? That's all I mean by my comment.


No. I like the efficiency of design.

Would you rather they delayed releasing the game while they redesigned the countersheet?
concealment counters on the back of tanks and guns doesn't feel very efficient when I am setting up and putting away the game. I end up with a big pile of concealment counters that I have to flip to see what's on the other side. Hardly a big deal, but I stand by my opinion that it would been nice to have more dedicated concealment counters. But if it ever bothers me enough I can simply use the "bonus" white counters.

Nevertheless, I was obviously in error when I said that "everyone shares your frustration with the white counters.". I retract the word "everyone" and replace it with "some". Fair enough?
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