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Subject: Giving up? rss

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Will Sanchez
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On page 21, the last sentence about player elimination: "You may also give up the game, counting your score and returning all your ocmponents to the game box". Is this a subset of the "player elimination" mechanic or can anyone just kind of "give up"?

I finally found myself very interested in the possiblity of "giving up"
at the height of your empire. If you can give up without having all your influence disks removed/eliminated, count up your score, then leave the dead husk of your glories empire for others to cannibalize, it becomes kind of like a challenge "can your empire be as great as mine once was?". Obviously I don't htink this was the intended use of this rule, but wouldn't it be fun? And if it is, I have a new strategy to try out!
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Markus
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Good question. The term "giving up" kind of implies that you can't win anymore, but I'd like to hear an official response.
 
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Aki Järvi-Eskola
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This has been asked somewhere, if I remember correctly. The sentence you quoted is lifted from context. Here's the full paragraph:
Rulebook, page 21 wrote:
player elimination
In the unlikely event that you lose all of your Influence Discs and Ships from the game board, you may no longer place Influence Discs on hexes. You may con­tinue to produce Resources each round (note that you get a minimum of 2 of each Resource, even if you do not have any Population Cubes on the board) and take Research ac­tions, which may still grant a few Victory Points. It is very unlikely that your score will be high, as just the hexes will often grant you over 10 Victory Points. You may also give up the game, counting your score and returning all your game components to the game box.

Emphasiz mine. You may only give up if you have nothing on the game board. Giving up also breaks all your diplomatic relations (since you're putting away your game pieces and your player board, hence there's no place for other players' Diplomats to be on), without Traitor Card exchanging owner.
Your idea of "Can you be as great as I?" is fun and all, but belongs in the Variants sub-forum.
Hope this helps
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Jim Richardson

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Doesn't sound like a concrete analysis. Giving up isn't the same as being eliminated, and in the "eliminated from the board" case it talks about still producing research. I really don't think that's the same thing at all. If you gave up you wouldn't be producing anything, and would probably not even be sitting at the table anymore.

I'd like to see an official elaboration on the "giving up" option, and what points are being counted in that case.
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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The "giving up" option is under the player elimination heading for a reason. It's there because you don't want to be forced to sit there for the rest of the game actually doing the upkeeps and taking some actions (and taking Start Player away from anyone else) for the rest of the game when you know you're pretty much not going to win (barring extremely exceptional cases, since you only have your Reputation tiles, Discovery tiles, and technology victory points, and as the rule mentions you get 10 or more Victory points for hexes alone). That way, you can just count up your score (by looking at your Technologies and Discovery tiles and reputation tiles) and then return everything to the box, effectively just passing for the rest of the game. I would do this if I was eliminated on Round 4 with only one researched technology, for example, since then my Science income wouldn't be high enough to gain any further points from Technology and the rest of my score would be awful anyway.

You can't just give up at the end of your final turn, count up your controlled hexes before other players take them away from you, and end the game with a huge amount of points (while also giving some other players free points since they wouldn't even have to fight you for the hex). I think it would be pretty ridiculous for someone to actually honestly believe that's what this one sentence in the rules realistically means. It's an alternative to "you may con­tinue to produce Resources each round" only: instead of continuing to produce Resources each round, you can just pack up your things and count up your score and be done with the game.
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Aki Järvi-Eskola
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ParticleMan wrote:
Doesn't sound like a concrete analysis. Giving up isn't the same as being eliminated, and in the "eliminated from the board" case it talks about still producing research. I really don't think that's the same thing at all. If you gave up you wouldn't be producing anything, and would probably not even be sitting at the table anymore.

Well, yes, if you're eliminated from the board, you will be producing three cubes' worth of resources (note that the combination could be just about anything). Depending on the produced resources and your trade rate, you might be able to get a Technology or two, and perhaps a Victory Point or two in the process (of course you could have some resources in the bank, but as you were eliminated from the game, chances are you've used them all up in last stand). And of course you need to have Economy points to pay for the Research actions.
It is not that hard to calculate what you can do for the remainder of the game if you're eliminated. You can stay in the game, and Research and pay Upkeep, in attempt to get a few extra VPs. Or you can deduct that given the number of rounds left in the game, the Productions and the Resources in your bank, and the combination of Technologies you've already purchased, that it is impossible for you to get VPs from Techs anymore. In this scenario, it would be dumb to make that player sit and watch the rest of the game, and saying every two minutes "I'm not doing a Reaction.".
ParticleMan wrote:

I'd like to see an official elaboration on the "giving up" option, and what points are being counted in that case.

Here's a small discussion on the subject Re: Eclipse Official FAQ
But if you give up, you count your score as normal. It's just that you won't have any hexes in your empire, so that sub-score would be zero.

Hope this helps

EDIT: taggedjc kind of ninja'd me.
EDIT 2: Actually, when you've passed, you should say "I'm not doing a Reaction." on your turn, not in plural.
 
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Simon Kamber
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Northburns wrote:
Well, yes, if you're eliminated from the board, you will be producing three cubes' worth of resources (note that the combination could be just about anything).


Could it? Isn't there enough cubes to fill the whole track, leaving only the basic '2 production' spaces?
 
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Timo Hohkala
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Dulkal wrote:
Northburns wrote:
Well, yes, if you're eliminated from the board, you will be producing three cubes' worth of resources (note that the combination could be just about anything).


Could it? Isn't there enough cubes to fill the whole track, leaving only the basic '2 production' spaces?


Which can be also covered leaving you with production of 0 to any given resource, if so desired (or forced to)
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Jeremy Diachuk
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Not "just about anything", but you could have three revealed Money spaces and gain no Science and no Materials. The printed "2" space can be covered up, if you return wild production cubes to different tracks. However, after that, you have to return to cubes to a different track. This means you could produce 2, 3, or 4 of any given resource (and produce 0 of another resource if it's 3 production, or no other resources if it's a 4 production).

It's actually in your best interest, if you're going to be eliminated anyway, to try to end up with 4 Science production and 0 Money/Materials production. Money is useless to you (the first two spaces on the Influence track are -0 upkeeps, and you won't be doing more than two Research actions each round and have no other actions to do) and so is Materials (you have no hexes in which to build anything), so it's better to get +1 Science than +2 of another resource (unless you're Human, in which case your 2:1 trade makes them equivalent).
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Camelorn
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Dulkal wrote:
Northburns wrote:
Well, yes, if you're eliminated from the board, you will be producing three cubes' worth of resources (note that the combination could be just about anything).


Could it?

Yep!

Dulkal wrote:
Isn't there enough cubes to fill the whole track, leaving only the basic '2 production' spaces?

Nope!
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Aki Järvi-Eskola
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taggedjc wrote:
Not "just about anything", but you could have three revealed Money spaces and gain no Science and no Materials. The printed "2" space can be covered up, if you return wild production cubes to different tracks. However, after that, you have to return to cubes to a different track. This means you could produce 2, 3, or 4 of any given resource (and produce 0 of another resource if it's 3 production, or no other resources if it's a 4 production).

This is what I meant when I said that when eliminated "you will be producing three cubes' worth of resources", but looking back I could've phrased it more "open". Eliminated player will have three "cubeless" spaces on their Production Tracks.

Camelorn wrote:

Dulkal wrote:
Isn't there enough cubes to fill the whole track, leaving only the basic '2 production' spaces?

Nope!

Clarification: There is not enough cubes to fill all of the tracks, there will be 3 spaces unfilled. The "2 production" spaces are part of the tracks.
 
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