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Conflict of Heroes: Awakening the Bear! – Russia 1941-42» Forums » General

Subject: New veteran card proposal- Vigilant Gunner rss

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Jesse LeBreton
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New card proposal. Infantry squads seem to get all the love in the veteran card category. This card helps fill a gap. Not only does it help another type of unit get a buff, it also opens up a new opportunity to add something cool to the gameplay. This card is intended to allow a unit, an AT gun or tank, to fire at a moving vehicle, during its bonus moves, as an opportunity action. Cost to fire must still be paid, but does not count as an action.

Veteran type card
Title: Vigilant Gunner (or something like this)
Bonus: An AT gun or tank may fire, paying costs as normal, at moving enemy vehicle during its bonus moves. If immobilized counter is drawn vehicle can't complete its move. Playing this card is not an action.
Frequency: Play & discard

This card could be designed as an action card, but it's theme seems to fit better as a veteran card. To boot, making it a veteran card ensures that it need not be drawn. A scenario designer can specifically say in the notes to place this card during setup as per normal veteran card setup.
The frequency I choose (play & discard) would probably be best. If the scenario designer wants it to work more than once that can easily be stated.
The last rule "playing this card is not an action" should be explained a little more. The idea is to allow this opportunity shot without it costing the player his next action that he would normally be due. In effect, it works like a combination dual action card and an opportunity action rolled into one. Example. Enemy T34 begins its 3 hex movement. The second hex entered is a good time for your AT gun to fire. You state you are using your veteran card. You pay 3 AP to fire. It hits. Enemy draws light damage and continues his move. Now it's your action phase even though you just fired, because the idea is that that opportunity action does not cost you your upcoming action.
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Eugene Korolyov
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Good idea! I like it!
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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The other question remains that even if this card is liked is there room for it to be added to the card sheet? If not, room could be made We have an over abundance of yellow action cards that never get used. Objectives 1-4 for instance. Number 4 could be dropped. Or even the game ends card. I personally would dislike any scenario that came to an abrupt ending due to this card being pulled. I much prefer real ending conditions. If anything, that card could go and no one would miss it.
 
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Dean halley

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Jesse,
I sent a prototype of the card to Uwe, and I made it up to use in play testing in Guadalcanal. We will see what he says.

Dean
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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Cool. Did you like the name Vigilant Gunner, or did you think of something better?
 
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Dean halley

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Jesse,
I choose not to use veteran cards in Guadalcanal, and they are not going to be in the reprint of AtB... oh no, flame war coming... . So I made your card an action card called "Veteran Crews and Infantry" that costs 1 CAP to use. The wording will be a bit different than what you suggested, but the effect remains the same. I suggetsed that we have four of them in the action deck, but that may change.

The randomness allows both sides to use the card, and models the fact that fast moving vehciles are still hard to hit even for the best gunners.

take care,
Dean

 
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uwe eickert
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Just to clear up any confusion, there never were any Veteran Cards in Awakening the Bear.

But this card idea has been brought up before and I also really like it.
 
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Pavlos Germidis
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...something like that ?



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Dean halley

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Perfect... or almost perfect! I anticipated that the card would be numbered 21, as not all firefights have ATGs or vehicles. I also thought we could make it available to any unit that has the range to fire at a vehicle. That way the poor bloody infantry could fire at a vehicle moving through their hex. Just some thoughts. The name of the card could be veteran infantry and crews.

Take care,
Dean
 
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Pavlos Germidis
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Hey Dean

Right about the #. I did not get the # organization idea.
I wanted to name the card "Snapshot" or something like that.
I thought also that the capability of "snapshot" would be reserved to units that are trained to respond vs fast moving vehicles, like AT crews or vehicles. Is infantry trained in this way ?
 
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Dean halley

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This is what I know... on Guadalcanal a quick thinking Marine placed a grenade in the track of a Japanese tank as it drive by him that disabled the tank when the grenade exploded. But that example may be an exception, not the rule, and Japanese tanks were very easy to take out anyway... at least by comparison to what was used in Europe.

But you are right on about so many things Pavlos when it comes to military hardware that you are probably right here too . So I say lets keep it just for AT CRews and vehicles.

What do you think Jesse?

Dean
 
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uwe eickert
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This card should be usable in any portion of a vehicle's move, not just the bonus hex move. I do not know how this should be worded, since I have been skiing and drinking schnapps all day.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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uweeickert wrote:
This card should be usable in any portion of a vehicle's move, not just the bonus hex move. I do not know how this should be worded, since I have been skiing and drinking schnapps all day.


Yes, I suppose you could use this card to fire at any hex the vehicle moves too, but it would seem kind of odd to waste a good card on taking a shot at the final hex. You could have waited your own turn to take such a shot anyway. No need to burn the card then. The initial idea was to allow an AT gun/tank to get a shot while moving vehicle was out of cover. Such a time would logically be during the bonus moves.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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uweeickert wrote:
Just to clear up any confusion, there never were any Veteran Cards in Awakening the Bear.

But this card idea has been brought up before and I also really like it.


True, but I've been playing with the SOS deck as a replacement since it came out. And if ATB's new deck is supposed the be the new replacement/preferred deck for play of all boxes it would make sense to print even the vet cards as well. I had not even thought of it but it would be kind of a bummer to have to wait until the SOS reprint to get updated vet cards as well.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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Love the pic BTW.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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down range wrote:
This is what I know... on Guadalcanal a quick thinking Marine placed a grenade in the track of a Japanese tank as it drive by him that disabled the tank when the grenade exploded. But that example may be an exception, not the rule, and Japanese tanks were very easy to take out anyway... at least by comparison to what was used in Europe.

But you are right on about so many things Pavlos when it comes to military hardware that you are probably right here too . So I say lets keep it just for AT CRews and vehicles.

What do you think Jesse?

Dean


My preference would be to have it as a AT gun/vehicle only card.

And on another note my original leaning was to have it be a vet card. More on that below. I suppose I should have suggested the card design in the SoS forum, but since AtB is getting new cards right now I naturally posted here. Anyway, about the action card vs vet type. In my opening post I explained why I though this card worked best as a vet card. It really seems like a great card to give to the dug in/prepared defender. Not so much for the attacker. But when used as an action card the attacker may end up with it several times, and not have much use for it. I guess it all depends on just how much the defender has to move around. But in general the defender always moves less. I suppose if the card ends up as an action card the scenario designer could still do things to treat it like a vet card. He could say remove these cards from the play pile and set them aside for the defender to use only. That sort of thing. In any case, I'm happy to see a new card type being considered. It opens up something new and novel.
 
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uwe eickert
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Bonus moves take place after regular movement, so one does want the card to allow a defender to attack a vehicle when it moves into earlier hexes.
Ex: A T34 with two bonus moves would be vulnerable in its initial move and also in the first bonus move.

How do we word this?

I do not want this as a Veteran card, since it should be available for all units at any time.
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Jesse LeBreton
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Ah I see what you are saying. In my mind I always considered bonus moves as the free moves in between the start and stop. I wonder if that has any effect on gameplay anywhere?


Something like "... before concluding move is made."
 
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Marcin Woźniak
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uweeickert wrote:
Bonus moves take place after regular movement, so one does want the card to allow a defender to attack a vehicle when it moves into earlier hexes.
Ex: A T34 with two bonus moves would be vulnerable in its initial move and also in the first bonus move.

How do we word this?

I do not want this as a Veteran card, since it should be available for all units at any time.


Is this what You recommend? I want this as a rule too. That would make ambushes of well camouflaged AT's adequate, even in the open.
The way it is in original rules, a tank may make a first move into Short range of hidden AT, see it (making it FACE some direction) AND move one (or two more hexes) outmaneuvering AT.

I did not like this rule, as best defense plans were sometimes ruined (or relied on) the hex tank begins its movement.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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Yes, that could be one of the uses of the card. To allow an AT to strike in close range before it's to late and the fast vehicle moves on. The other use is to allow a shot while the fast vehicle is moving from cover to cover. There may be a moment during its middle moves to take a good shot there.
 
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James Palmer
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uweeickert wrote:
Bonus moves take place after regular movement, so one does want the card to allow a defender to attack a vehicle when it moves into earlier hexes.
Ex: A T34 with two bonus moves would be vulnerable in its initial move and also in the first bonus move.

How do we word this?

I do not want this as a Veteran card, since it should be available for all units at any time.


I assume you're suggesting this as a new action card, rather than another rule? I can see this as a card, but not as a general rule. Right now there are no "interrupt your opponent" mechanics in the game (hitting a mine is close, but not quite the same thing), so there's a new level of complexity added to bring that in.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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Notice I said middle moves in that last post. I guess there is no other way to say it. Since bonus moves by some are the middle moves and by others it's the trailing moves after the first normal move. Officially, bonus moves do follow after the regular moves. It's worded that way in the rules. But I have found that thinking of the bonus moves as the middle moves is just more intuitive. And I have never noticed any gameplay difference in doing so. I'll ask again. Is there one? Provide an example for me please.

If there is no difference perhaps it would be best to officially change the meaning/wording to imply that the bonus moves are extra middle moves. In this way the Vigilant Gunner card can simply say may shoot during bonus moves and there would be no confusion. Actually, there was no confusion in the first place. When I first posted the card everyone understood what shooting during bonus moves meant. No one asked what it meant. I think that should be taken seriouly, because the simplicity of that wording just clicked in everyone mind. A rewording made to remind people that technically bonus moves are not middle ones may create more confusion than you think. Example: You may use this card to shoot at a vehicle during its regular move and it's first bonus move. What??? This is what's going to happen. Players are going to come on here and ask please clarify what this means. And me or someone else will tell them that that card just means you can shot during a vehicles bonus moves. You know the extra ones in the middle. And they will say why didn't they just say that in the first placewhistle
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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From another thread
MarcinW wrote:
If that is what Uwe meant (just a card) then I am sorry for misleading thread...
Maybe simplifying "vigilant gunner" - an action card, that allows for a free shot (and shot only!) even before movement is completed, for a cost of 1 CAP. (I think that paying two actions may be just too expensive.)


Marcin your last line about paying 2 actions to fire using this card tells me I should provide a game example to clear up confusion. First of all, playing this card is not an action at all. It allows you to interrupt your opponents move before he finishes it to take a shot with your AT or vehicle. Then your opponent finishes his move if the vehicle survived. Once that is done you now take your own turn. I will post some pics in the next post.
 
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Jesse LeBreton
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He's the pic I promised. Assume the German player is holding a Vigilant Gunner card.


Now that the Soviet player has finished his move the German player now gets his normal action.

Edit:increased pic size.
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Jesse LeBreton
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The wording on the card can be as simple as "Fire during movement" or something like that because one would learn quickly enough that using this card to fire on the last hex the vehicle moved to would be a pointless waste of 1CAP and the card.
 
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