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The Werewolves of Miller's Hollow» Forums » Rules

Subject: Star-crossed Lovers in the endgame. rss

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David Smullens
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We played a couple sessions of this game last night; It was tons of fun.

In the last game I was the 'little girl' and I was lovers with one of the werewolves. I didn't realize my lover was a werewolf - but thinking about it, it made our jobs much easier - she kept me from getting killed by werewolves and when I claimed to be the little girl (and sitting right next to my lover) and cleared my werewolf partner, she wasn't presented as a lynch target.

The last day, however, got tricky. There were 4 players left alive: The Hunter, the little girl (myself), werewolf 1 (my lover), werewolf 2.

Everyone knew who everyone was - out of instinct I called it the 'end of the game' as in the sister game to this mafia we always said the game ended with a mafia win if mafia equaled townies since the townies couldn't get a majority. To be fair I don't think we were handling the lynching the same way as in this books instructions, in most cases the majority of those alive (and not a plurality) would have had to agree to lynch somebody. If the day was dragging we'd narrow it down to 2 candidates and to a upvote/downvote to choose between them.

In this case, I said the lovers won because they survived to the endgame, but technically there were others alive.

So I see 2 scenarios of how it *should* have played out.

A) We convince the hunter to lynch werewolf 2 -- werewolf 1 agrees because it would lead to a lover victory. The hunter probably would have agreed because the person playing him I don't think would have realize the ramifications and after all - lynching werewolves is usually what townies are trying to do. This would mean my lover could have killed him at night. Technically he would kill one of the 2 lovers and we'd die too ----- We would have been the last 2 alive though --- does that mean nobody wins or the lovers win?

B) One of the lovers is lynched - meaning both die. (this wouldn't happen as neither lover would support that lynching but for discussion sake). That means the werewolf kills the hunter and the hunter retaliates. Another scenario where everyone is left dead - but technically a werewolf was the last alive. Does this mean the werewolves win or nobody?

C) The hunter is lynched. He could either kill one of the lovers, allowing the werewolves to win or kill the werewolf allowing the lovers to win, or kill nobody; This would leave 2 werewolves without only one kill option, so I guess that means the little girl would have been killed, leaving one living werewolf.

I guess this is why the sheriff/mayor (or whatever that double vote thing is) exists - to prevent a stalemate. Perhaps we should play with it next time.
 
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Goo
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Narninian wrote:
We played a couple sessions of this game last night; It was tons of fun.

In the last game I was the 'little girl' and I was lovers with one of the werewolves. I didn't realize my lover was a werewolf - but thinking about it, it made our jobs much easier - she kept me from getting killed by werewolves and when I claimed to be the little girl (and sitting right next to my lover) and cleared my werewolf partner, she wasn't presented as a lynch target.

The last day, however, got tricky. There were 4 players left alive: The Hunter, the little girl (myself), werewolf 1 (my lover), werewolf 2.

Everyone knew who everyone was - out of instinct I called it the 'end of the game' as in the sister game to this mafia we always said the game ended with a mafia win if mafia equaled townies since the townies couldn't get a majority. To be fair I don't think we were handling the lynching the same way as in this books instructions, in most cases the majority of those alive (and not a plurality) would have had to agree to lynch somebody. If the day was dragging we'd narrow it down to 2 candidates and to a upvote/downvote to choose between them.

In this case, I said the lovers won because they survived to the endgame, but technically there were others alive.

So I see 2 scenarios of how it *should* have played out.

A) We convince the hunter to lynch werewolf 2 -- werewolf 1 agrees because it would lead to a lover victory. The hunter probably would have agreed because the person playing him I don't think would have realize the ramifications and after all - lynching werewolves is usually what townies are trying to do. This would mean my lover could have killed him at night. Technically he would kill one of the 2 lovers and we'd die too ----- We would have been the last 2 alive though --- does that mean nobody wins or the lovers win?

B) One of the lovers is lynched - meaning both die. (this wouldn't happen as neither lover would support that lynching but for discussion sake). That means the werewolf kills the hunter and the hunter retaliates. Another scenario where everyone is left dead - but technically a werewolf was the last alive. Does this mean the werewolves win or nobody?

C) The hunter is lynched. He could either kill one of the lovers, allowing the werewolves to win or kill the werewolf allowing the lovers to win, or kill nobody; This would leave 2 werewolves without only one kill option, so I guess that means the little girl would have been killed, leaving one living werewolf.

I guess this is why the sheriff/mayor (or whatever that double vote thing is) exists - to prevent a stalemate. Perhaps we should play with it next time.


It sure is a clunky end, but I don't think you can call it a lovers' win. I think you need to play out that last day. Lynch options are this:

Lynch Hunter:
Hunter brutals WW2 = Lovers win
Hunter brutals either Lover = Wolves win

Lynch either Lover:
Village wins by Hunter being alone with 1 wolf

Lynch WW2:
WW1 night-kills Hunter, Hunter brutals either Lover = everyone dies, no one wins (we play that deaths are all simultaneous and victory conditions are checked after the dust settles)

It shouldn't really be a stalemate. The Wolves and Lovers can only lose if any of them are lynched. The 3 of them must lynch the Hunter, then the Hunter becomes the kingmaker and gets to decide if the Lovers win or if the Wolves win.
 
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David Me
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Wolves won.

Little Girl has been ruinous to the game in every game that I played it. It's far too easy to catch the wolves.

Lovers aren't much better. Everyone has a different interpretation of how they should be played, none of which seem as fun to me as any other basic role would have been.

In your scenario, the Lover Wolf should never have agreed to eat anyone, just letting the village lynch all his compatriots. How does your group handle wolves not reaching agreement? My group has no policy on it, because one hasn't been needed without the Lover role.
 
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Narninian wrote:

In the last game I was the 'little girl' and I was lovers with one of the werewolves. I didn't realize my lover was a werewolf


Sorry, I've never played using the "little girl" since I hear everyone hates it, but doesn't she get to secretly open her eyes at night? So you'd know who the wolves are?

Narninian wrote:

In this case, I said the lovers won because they survived to the endgame, but technically there were others alive.


Do you have the rules that come with "Millers Hollow"? It says that if the lovers are werewolf and villager, they must kill off all the other players to win - it's the only way they could get to live in peace.
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Narninian wrote:
in the sister game to this mafia we always said the game ended with a mafia win if mafia equaled townies since the townies couldn't get a majority.


That's the werewolf way as well. Werewolves are stronger, so the rule is normally if there are equal numbers of numbers of villagers and werewolves then werewolves win. But there are some printed versions of werewolf where you have to play down to the last person due to funky roles, and I can see the conundrum in your case - that if you don't automatically call a werewolf win, then the unusual powers of the remaining players could swing the balance.
 
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Tim Gilberg
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davidme wrote:


In your scenario, the Lover Wolf should never have agreed to eat anyone, just letting the village lynch all his compatriots. How does your group handle wolves not reaching agreement? My group has no policy on it, because one hasn't been needed without the Lover role.


Hmmm. If you were playing with a rule where the wolves had to be unanimous on eating, it could get a bit interesting. You might see one wolf take one for the team by speaking up during the day to say that he was a wolf, and the obvious lover is also a wolf. Funny.
 
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Goo
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Gelatinous Goo wrote:
Narninian wrote:
We played a couple sessions of this game last night; It was tons of fun.

In the last game I was the 'little girl' and I was lovers with one of the werewolves. I didn't realize my lover was a werewolf - but thinking about it, it made our jobs much easier - she kept me from getting killed by werewolves and when I claimed to be the little girl (and sitting right next to my lover) and cleared my werewolf partner, she wasn't presented as a lynch target.

The last day, however, got tricky. There were 4 players left alive: The Hunter, the little girl (myself), werewolf 1 (my lover), werewolf 2.

Everyone knew who everyone was - out of instinct I called it the 'end of the game' as in the sister game to this mafia we always said the game ended with a mafia win if mafia equaled townies since the townies couldn't get a majority. To be fair I don't think we were handling the lynching the same way as in this books instructions, in most cases the majority of those alive (and not a plurality) would have had to agree to lynch somebody. If the day was dragging we'd narrow it down to 2 candidates and to a upvote/downvote to choose between them.

In this case, I said the lovers won because they survived to the endgame, but technically there were others alive.

So I see 2 scenarios of how it *should* have played out.

A) We convince the hunter to lynch werewolf 2 -- werewolf 1 agrees because it would lead to a lover victory. The hunter probably would have agreed because the person playing him I don't think would have realize the ramifications and after all - lynching werewolves is usually what townies are trying to do. This would mean my lover could have killed him at night. Technically he would kill one of the 2 lovers and we'd die too ----- We would have been the last 2 alive though --- does that mean nobody wins or the lovers win?

B) One of the lovers is lynched - meaning both die. (this wouldn't happen as neither lover would support that lynching but for discussion sake). That means the werewolf kills the hunter and the hunter retaliates. Another scenario where everyone is left dead - but technically a werewolf was the last alive. Does this mean the werewolves win or nobody?

C) The hunter is lynched. He could either kill one of the lovers, allowing the werewolves to win or kill the werewolf allowing the lovers to win, or kill nobody; This would leave 2 werewolves without only one kill option, so I guess that means the little girl would have been killed, leaving one living werewolf.

I guess this is why the sheriff/mayor (or whatever that double vote thing is) exists - to prevent a stalemate. Perhaps we should play with it next time.


It sure is a clunky end, but I don't think you can call it a lovers' win. I think you need to play out that last day. Lynch options are this:

Lynch Hunter:
Hunter brutals WW2 = Lovers win
Hunter brutals either Lover = Wolves win

Lynch either Lover:
Village wins by Hunter being alone with 1 wolf

Lynch WW2:
WW1 night-kills Hunter, Hunter brutals either Lover = everyone dies, no one wins (we play that deaths are all simultaneous and victory conditions are checked after the dust settles)

It shouldn't really be a stalemate. The Wolves and Lovers can only lose if any of them are lynched. The 3 of them must lynch the Hunter, then the Hunter becomes the kingmaker and gets to decide if the Lovers win or if the Wolves win.


Oops, I was mistaken there. I was thinking the Hunter defied parity and would win if left alone with a wolf. But in WWoMH the Hunter is only Brutal.

Even so, I was still wrong.

At the end of the game there, you had 2 wolves and 2 non-wolves. The wolves had reached parity and won. The game was over at dawn.
 
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Greg Wilson
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Gelatinous Goo wrote:
At the end of the game there, you had 2 wolves and 2 non-wolves. The wolves had reached parity and won. The game was over at dawn.


Except that in some published version of the game, the wolves don't win at parity. In WoMH they win when there's only one non-wolf alive, and in WoMH: The Village, they win when there are no non-wolves alive.

The parity rule works a lot better, I agree, but as the rules are written the game wasn't over. I think it is essentially a broken endgame, though. Am I right in thinking that the Lover-Werewolf can no longer win with the Werewolf team, only as a Lover?

I think possibly the most sensible ending is for the other three to lynch the hunter, which leaves the hunter as the kingmaker; either he shoots a lover and the wolves win, or he shoots the wolf and the lovers win, or he doesn't shoot anybody (wolf win in WoMH, lover win the next day in The Village). It's a sucky situation but it's at least consistent with the rules. Otherwise you're looking at a deadlock, since there isn't a majority that can win together. I don't think the mayor would make a difference in this situation; if the lovers have it then they can force the lynch, but the game still comes down to who the hunter shoots.

There are a lot of questions raised in the OP, though, most of which the rules don't address and come down to group style.

At what point do you check for victory conditions?
I'd say you let reactions happen first. You don't check for a winner before the hunter retaliates, or between one lover dying and the other lover dying. I'd treat those as instant effects and check once the dust settles.

Who wins if everyone is dead?
Group ruling, really. In WoMH, probably a tie between the werewolf and village teams, since both have achieved their victory conditions.

What happens if the game is deadlocked?
Again, group will have to make a ruling. Probably a tie again. Normally this won't be a problem, of course, because if there's no vote majority then night falls and the wolves get to kill someone. But if you get a situation like this where the wolves are divided, you can end up in perpetual stalemate.

Of course, there are rulesets and rolesets where these issues simply don't come up. WoMH could do with a rewrite to fix this and other issues, and if anything The Village makes it worse.
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David Smullens
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We didn't play as written and thats part of the issue;

This would be addressed with the 'sheriff role' or whatever its called, which gives one player 2 votes.

If one of the lovers had it we could lynch one werewolf and kill the hunter; I'd rule it a lover win since they were the last 2 alive (even though the hunter could kill them should he choose to do so);

If the werewolf had 2 votes, he could kill one of the lovers and kill the hunter at night (again I'd rule it a werewolf win since a wolf was the last alive)

If the hunter had 2 votes he'd be a kingmaker;

I usually mod these games and make these decisions, but I was a participant I was biased.

 
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Greg Wilson
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Narninian wrote:
We didn't play as written and thats part of the issue


Oh, don't worry, it's a wonky situation even with the rules as written. The three-team endgame just doesn't really work in Werewolf/Mafia because you're so likely to get a kingmaker or deadlock situation.

If I recall right, by the way, the sheriff/mayor is a tiebreaker rather than a doubled vote.

Narninian wrote:
If one of the lovers had it we could lynch one werewolf and kill the hunter; I'd rule it a lover win since they were the last 2 alive (even though the hunter could kill them should he choose to do so)


Personally, I don't agree with the slow-motion replay method of victory determination; I wouldn't give the lovers the win for meeting their VC in the moment between the hunter dying and the hunter retaliating instantly.

If you do take this approach, though, it extrapolates to some odd situations. For example, say you had a final three of villager, hunter, werewolf. Wolf kills the hunter, hunter kills the werewolf. Under this interpretation, the wolf wins because he hit his victory condition before the hunter shot him.

Hrm, as written in WoMH if there's a lone villager left alive then technically both sides have won. I suppose you could rule 'as soon as' means you look at strict order of events. But the extra deaths from the lovers or hunter are described as 'instant' or 'immediate' so it seems weird to me to effectively end the game in between these reactions.

Narninian wrote:
If the werewolf had 2 votes, he could kill one of the lovers and kill the hunter at night (again I'd rule it a werewolf win since a wolf was the last alive)


In this case the hunter kill isn't an issue, because the wolf wins as soon as the lovers die. However, the mayor-wolf can't actually push this lynch through without the hunter's help, since he still loses a vote against the other three.
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