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Subject: Can't win as the Consul? rss

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Bret Mattingly
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Hey guys,

I don't know if I'm just bad at this, but I'd like to know if anyone has had this problem as the Consul: I just can't win.

After 4 plays, one has been very close, but only after I realized I'd cheated (Rex has to spawn at a point. D The game after that, I was against Barbarian, Rogue (Disgusting combination), Paladin (Pushing unfun for the Consul) and Druid. I literally just could not win. The first two of 4 spawn points were gone within 3 rounds, and by the time Starfire had spawned I had none left, despite doing my best to protect them (and my Minions and Denizens getting +BR to Armor!). Has anyone else had this experience?
 
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Silidus
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bmattingly wrote:
Has anyone else had this experience?


Yup.

The heroes have a lot going for them, especially near the end of the game if they have been picking up lots of loot along the way.

There are lots of posts regarding easy consul wins and easy hero wins. For me the key has been to block in the heroes, and prevent them from scoring ANY attacks, using either heavy armored units (ironscales) near the beginning of the game, or just flat out running units away and using range. Remember that when dealing with rogues, smoke will block a teleport.
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Richard Bossanova
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Well most games we've played have been pretty close, the heroes seem to win more than the console does but, unless you're playing by house rules you seem to have 4 heroes and 4 spawn points, and the rules are either 16 bit with 3 heroes and 3 tiles/spawn points, or 5 heroes and 5 tiles/spawn points.

If you are doing 4 im assuming you're only spawning 1 rex, and theres an extra hero to help dps him down, or debuff/imoble/fire him which may seem unfair for the console if they're the ones overrun by heroes when the heroes are supposed to feel overrun by mobs. (not sure if this is the case but its possible if you were playing this way.)

Also i have had experiences in both ways in which the console actually gang grouped the first hero in the second tile and killed him very fast before the second spawn point was down and won very early on and seemed the heroes had no chance. Also the other way around in which the heroes killed 2 spawn points so early on there was barely any items on the heroes and rex was on the board, but it didnt matter there was only 1 spawn point left and the heroes got a pretty easy win.

I think Some of this game is luck via rolls/tile placement. Some of the tiles with the 2 square hallways (black side) are rough in that the console have trapped people in with rez/dragon/regular dragons/kobolds and it made for a pretty intense feeling.

All in all i feel the game is "pretty" well balanced and in favor of the heroes usually a tad more, but still thinking of how to tip the scales to make it almost even on the console side, but almost any small changes can be too huge for the heroes to be well overwhelmed. any input/ideas welcome.

Hope this wall of text may have helped.
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Emil Vincent Alonzo
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Yeh the game seems a bit more on the luck side especially with which tiles you get and what loot is drawn to an extent.

I feel like if you can get a good footing at the start with setting up your defenses and ganging up on heroes, etc., it works out pretty well. My best games as the consul had Ironshields helping with group defense early on and like mentioned before, kind of bottlenecking the heroes so that they are kind of funneled into the group.

There always seems like there is this "Hero momentum" of scoring more loot and that making them MORE powerful and scoring even better loot that kind of snowballs, so cutting that off right at the start seems to let the consul have a fighting chance.

But yeh sometimes it feels like its the luck of the dice really which makes things unpredictable.
 
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Josh Jenkins
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In my house, the heroes have won twice and the consul four times. I've been the consul every time. Also, of note, the two hero victories were last gasp efforts that were clearly issues of them winning exactly one activation before I would have snuffed them out completely.

The fact that all of the kobolds have the mob ability, mixed with bogging the heroes up with iron shields early, has just been nasty on them. I'm regularly rolling 5 (or more) dice on attacks thanks to mob, and concentrate those attacks, killing one character ASAP and then moving on to the next.

I think the heroes are starting to pick up on what they should and shouldn't do, however. Mainly, I think it's that the players are either picking heroes they like or at random instead of optimizing their party. They've figured out the barbarian is badass, but have yet to grasp the potential of the rogue. Sooner or later, I expect it to become much more even, or even tilt the other way. It just hasn't yet.



 
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Kevin Keefe
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My experience has been a lot more like Josh here. I've been the Consul each time I've played, and I have a 3:1 success ration thus far. I think that as the Hero players figure more crap out, it will shift to more equal footing.
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vam bob
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If you havent been winning most of your games as the Consul then perhaps consider the following:

****Remember that at every 16 bit marker, the Consul gets to draw loot cards (up to the number of remaining spawn points) and gets to pick one that will stay in effect for all his minions for the rest of the game. (It will almost certainly be a consul win if he picks a status-inflicting loot) (it is on page 15 of the Rulebook)

****Remember that if there is at least one remaining spawn point, your boss gets an additional activation every round. (Note that this isnt just one additional activation point, it grants your boss a complete new activation turn for a grand total of 8 activation points per round)(page 28)

****Remember that the Hero's Loot Meter resets to the start after every round. (page 14)

*Remember to use the dungeon theme effects and boss fight effects.

The game's rules alone are enough to tip the scales much toward the Consul's advantage, if you feel underpowered, then perhaps you have overlooked one of those rules. If however, your Heroes are savvy veterans and can beat their unfavorable odds, then consider the following strategies:

*Every minion has synergy with other minions (kobolds with kobolds, dragonlings with dragonlings)


*It will be inevitable to lose at least one spawn point, mitigate your losses and accumulate your forces elsewhere.

*NEVER send your minions in piecemeal. Always build them up and use their combos in synergy.

*Depending on the game, you might want to hide Rex until Starfire appears and then use them both together

*Flingers and Fire are your main sources of damage.

*Always have a Dragonpriest up every round for initiative rolls.

*Never spawn gougers unless they are all thats left. Dont attempt to keep them behind your knuckleheads to try for that extra damage with their reach and mob. They will just get bowled over.

*Always have at least one Ironscale aura up on your frontline at all times. (they dont stack though)

*There is a particular dungeon tile where a corner is almost completely isolated by Lava effect boxes. Always select that tile and always put a treasure chest behind the Lava.

Also, heres an excellent tip: you can balance a Dragon Priest on top of Starfire. It looks neat-o.
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Emil Vincent Alonzo
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vambob wrote:

Also, heres an excellent tip: you can balance a Dragon Priest on top of Starfire. It looks neat-o.



HAHA! I love it... Im actually looking forward to getting off work just to do this now =P.


vambob brings up some great tips! Last game I just played I think clogging spaces too, tho dangerous for burst attacks, helps to slow the heroes down. Rex is a fatty and block a lot of area! To help with range, dont forget that the Priets can give stealth and Flingers have Smoke too!
 
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P. Brick
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Wow. We are definitely having the opposite problem. We really want to like this game, but right now it's just frustration. They don't just lose, they lose badly, and it's getting worse every time we play.

5 games (Two 8bit,3 16bit) and the heroes have lost every one. In the last three games it's been clear that the heroes will lose from the second round of the game. The Consul just gangs up on one hero until its dead. That happens by round 2, or the first enemy turn of round 3. Then you get to watch 12-16 points of monsters massacre the other two heroes.

Every hero turn after round 2 goes like this:

"We're all on fire and/or knocked down, and no potions left. We're surrounded by enemies with sheild wall. We have 2 or maybe three loot cards, 1 treasure card, and our dead hero probably took some of those with her. I'll use my 2-3 actions to fail to inflict any wounds and/or pick up no potions or hearts."

The game plays really smoothly, the figures are incredible, and the theme is fantastic. We really want to like the game but we're about to give up. It's no fun to know the outcome everytime. How on earth do the Heroes ever win? The consul gets to attack 3 or more times for every 1 time the heroes attack...those odds seem unbeatable.

(First game was Paladin, Rogue... they did well until we realized rex just needed to immobilize them both, walk away, and it's game over.
Second game was Rogue, Ranger. Rogue killed on first turn of round 3, Ranger lasted a long time but was clearly losing the whole time.
Third and Fourth games: Ember Mage, Dwarf, Barbarian. Barbarian died in the 2nd round and the 3rd round, with dwarf soon after. Everyone gave up for the night.
5th game: Ember Mage, Dwarf, Ranger: Ranger dies 1st turn of round 2, Dwarf dies last turn of round 2, Rex and all monsters but 3 are on the board at the start of round 3 vs a Mage with +1 will. Mage dies.)

I have the slim hope that our Heroes are doing something wrong, but none of us can figure out what it is.

--

Anyway, to help the original poster: our Consul always focuses on killing one hero. Hot Pot is huge, as is knockdown from the whelps/wyverns. Always use sheild wall instead of attacking twice with the Iron Scales. Seems to work (all too well) for us.
 
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Silidus
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For heroes name of the start of the game is LOOT. Heroes can have a tough time against ironscales and knuckleheads at the start, but once you have 1-2 items of attack loot you can rip those guys apart without breaking a nail.

If your consul has you bottled up at by the second round, back off.. move back towards the entrance and spread out, that should help expose the squishier kobolts, just make sure that he cant swarm you with ALL of the units (manage your range). Getting mobbed by 3 units is ok, they will put some hits in, but your next turn should land you good hits on the clumped up mobs and maybe even a few hearts.

If the consul spawning faster than you can kill, slow down and prioritize targets to ensure you get the most hits each round for loot gains.

Honestly, my heroes rip the consul apart more often than not.
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Emil Vincent Alonzo
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Silidus wrote:
For heroes name of the start of the game is LOOT. Heroes can have a tough time against ironscales and knuckleheads at the start, but once you have 1-2 items of attack loot you can rip those guys apart without breaking a nail.

If your consul has you bottled up at by the second round, back off.. move back towards the entrance and spread out, that should help expose the squishier kobolts, just make sure that he cant swarm you with ALL of the units (manage your range). Getting mobbed by 3 units is ok, they will put some hits in, but your next turn should land you good hits on the clumped up mobs and maybe even a few hearts.

If the consul spawning faster than you can kill, slow down and prioritize targets to ensure you get the most hits each round for loot gains.

Honestly, my heroes rip the consul apart more often than not.


I tend to agree with Silidus. What ive noticed bout this game is that once one side gets momentum, whether its the Consul or the Heroes, then it starts to feel one sided (which is why I think there are a few "Cant win as Consul / Cant win as Heroes" polar opposites posted here).

For me I usually play Consul cuz none of my group has really stepped up to try with all the Consul rules, but basically if I can stop the Heroes from getting loot at the start, or in a few cases they draw really crappy loot for the Heroes they have, then its kind of all over for them... conversely tho a few good relic pulls and I pretty much get steam rolled as the Consul!

It sounds like you just have some really organized and skilled players playing as the Heroes. There have been some really good suggestions on this thread ... maybe have the Consul switch around too to see if that changes the feel of the game a bit?
 
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Walter Melnyk
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Hi,
Based on our plays, we agree on 3 things in these posts:

1. A lot of the game is tremendous.

2. When the balance in the game shifts, it shifts violently and buries one side.

3. Finally, the heroes are usually the side that gets buried. Consider that in a 16-bit game:
Starfire gets 2 full activtions each turn. You can often hold back Rex and tagteam him with Starfire. It is quite possible to focus on 1 hero and kill them as/before the boss arrives.

The result is our heroes hold there own and then get steamrolled by these factors - especially if the Consul player is an experienced tactical player.

So here's the question: has your group had similar experiences and what variant fixes have you tried? Eliminating the second activation for Starfire?

Again, we like SDE but the endgame seems broken, as though it had not been rigorously playtested before release. Thoughts?
 
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Professor Brick wrote:
Wow. We are definitely having the opposite problem. We really want to like this game, but right now it's just frustration. They don't just lose, they lose badly, and it's getting worse every time we play.


I came to this forum today for the same reason. Last night was game 3 and the Heroes haven't stood a sliver of a chance, regardless of who was playing Consul. Heroes killed the first spawn point in round one, and got a hero to a treasure chest. Consul got 2 hits on one hero, but only lost one Kobold. Consul won initiative in round 2, killed a hero and badly wounded the second hero, and it just fell apart from there. The Heroes got some kills in, but my focusing 100% of Consul attacks on one hero, there simply isn't a way to avoid taking 5 hits and losing any loot they're carrying. By the time the swarm reached hero #3 she was stacked with an item in every slot and was still torn apart by shear numbers. With a round consisting of my one activation and 3 action points vs. 20 skulls worth of activations. Luck being what it is, roll enough dice and eventually you'll come up empty handed (like a spell cast with 2R 3B 1G and turning up 2 stars... arggg!)

After the very un-fun game last night we were going to try a Hero "dungeon blitz" as opposed to crawl... split up and race to down the spawn points. If the heroes could get two spawn points down in the first or second round, it might be possible to win? The AOE abilities of the heroes are trivial to avoid, and expensive enough you rarely get more than one. Consul just spreads out to the point where the AOE will only pick up 2 or 3 wounds and they'll outpace anything a hero can dish out. This makes for a max damage of around 3 wounds dealt per hero (less than one loot per activation, and 1-2 loot cards per round). Combined with spawning 8 or heaven forbid 12 more skulls every round, it seems like the Consul has a cake walk. Last night the game ended with every single Consul model on the table save 2 (no squares available for them to spawn in) and Rex... Starfire need not appear to deal with these hapless fools apparently.

We too want to love this game, so we'll probably give it a few more attempts, but it was pure frustration last night. We started talking about adding a 4th hero, or giving out loot like candy to give the heroes a chance. From the comments here, we might try to run away more and farm loot for a while, but there are plenty of mechanics to punish that particular video game trope... sprinting kobolds 12-14 squares (giving up their meager one attack, but lending +B dice for Mob) makes keeping out of range very hard, Flingers setting everything on fire, every wound dealt in your farming taking you closer to 16bit (Rex + a loot card applied to every minion), and the slow pace eventually leading to 24+ skulls of enemies on the board that can dart in, hit, and finish in formations that make AOE ineffective. It seems like all mechanics point toward ignoring mobs and taking out spawn points exclusively. Sadly, that is not a "dungeon crawl" and will deny the heroes much in the way of loot, which a previous poster said is their bread and butter.

There are obviously plenty of hero combinations left to try, but if the classes are balanced there shouldn't be spectacularly bad combinations, right? Just require different tactics based around the abilities available? Last night was Fighter, Druid, Ranger. Not "perfect", but there's the Ranger's Herbalist to remove status effects, Druid's 3B attacks to generate hearts, the high armor of the Fighter and Angry Bear, ranged attacks of the Ranger... instead the Druid's Briar Armor was the only damage he dealt (no loot generated) before he was dead, and the Fighter's armor didn't hold up to the onslaught. Hurts just remembering it.

Professor Brick wrote:

"We're all on fire and/or knocked down, and no potions left. We're surrounded by enemies with sheild wall. We have 2 or maybe three loot cards, 1 treasure card, and our dead hero probably took some of those with her. I'll use my 2-3 actions to fail to inflict any wounds and/or pick up no potions or hearts."


... it's like you're at my game table ...

 
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Kiren Maelwulf
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5 hero games are pretty easy for the heros. 3 hero games however are a completely different story. Not only do you have less variety of heroes with their unique roles, but you also have less dice being rolled meaning less potions, hearts, and loot track advancement. This means that in a 3 hero game, a proper party is a MUST. The Paladin is a neccessity, his potion wins games, as simple as that. It takes effort and luck for the consol to place wounds on a hero, the Paladins potion removes 3 of those wounds instantly AND removes all status effects, that is just too good to go without, heck even in a 5 hero game it is hard to go without a Paladin, in 3 you are reducing your chances to near nil. Then you need the Rogue, the teleport potion and luck are really going to help out, in addition, the Rogue has excellent survivabilty and can move up fast to pick off spawn points and open chests, escaping when needed. This does mean that unfortunatly, in 3 hero games there is not a lot of room for a wide selection of heroes. The third hero is a bit more open, but overall the Barbarian is king, having a possible 6 seperate attacks a turn, each of which can generate potions, move the track up multiple times, and clear large amounts of enemies or a few big ones.

Hopefully with the new characters some things will change, but I am not convinced that the Paladins potion will ever be replaced as the top healing ability. If you have the time, I would suggest trying the 5 hero game as it is completely different than the 3 hero game in terms of balance, although that is because the advantage takes a major shift in favour of the heroes. Perhaps future expansions will come with alternative boss cards to better scale the game depending on the total number of heroes.
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Thanks Kiran, that's very helpful. I can definitely see how 5 Heroes helps with the loot and heart/potion generation... though the thought of the Consul spawning 20 skulls to start and probably 16-20 more the round after that is a bit ... daunting. We'll try a Paladin + Rogue + Barbarian 16bit and see how it changes. Also looking forward to expansions for additional variety, because in reading here it sounds like the game is balanced, at least to start... but I'm only dumping more money into it if we start having fun playing.

Cheers!
 
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Nyenyec N
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zegerman wrote:
sprinting kobolds 12-14 squares


How can you move this much?
I thought you can only move 7 in one activation and can't activate any model more than once per turn.
 
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Fernando Robert Yu
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nyenyec wrote:
zegerman wrote:
sprinting kobolds 12-14 squares


How can you move this much?
I thought you can only move 7 in one activation and can't activate any model more than once per turn.


If you use the RUN option you can move 2x at the cost of doing nothing else.
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Arthur Van
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I've been playing this game for a while with my group and most of the games end up with the consul winning. I've been playing consul for all but one game and found out how easy it is to crush the players, but for the one game that I played as a player... I ended up being able to single handedly wreck the consul with the barbarian, my other 2 teammates were just missing their rolls and not being helpful at all.

I think the problem is that most of us on this forum are people that own the game. we read up on the roles and the strategies we can employ to wreck the other side. It also helps to be a player that plays dnd and other dungeon crawlers, meaning that most of us just know how to manouver around a board and inflict as much damage as out chracters can do.

My advice is to learn how to play dungeon crawlers the right way. don't treat the monsters like chess pieces. Give them a bit of characteristics and plan out their actions as if you were in an evil commanding position. It will help make the game for fun and hopefully help you understand the game more deeply.
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G G
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Agreed. SDE favors strong tactical play.
 
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Jan Jensen
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I honestly didn't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.

While it's generally a bad idea to feed the heroes a few single units, there is a way to make it work in your favor.

Always always always keep an eye on the loot-o-meter.
If you are in a situation where the heroes has JUST gotten a loot; that means you can take two wounds that the heroes can't benefit from. But if they choose to deal those two wounds anyway the consul sure benefits by having the power-gauge advancing.

The situation could look like this.

Your turn. One hero left to activate. Loot-o-meter has just landed at a "loot".
Your monsters are generally out of reach.
You advance 2 trash monsters and attack a hero.
You are perhaps lucky enough to actually hit the hero? Woo!
If two other monsters are within reach, just make them flee!
Now the remaining hero is left with the choice of either killing the two monsters (and advancing the gauge) or letting them get away with attacking and risk getting swarmed the next round.
It's a loose-loose situation for the heroes.
 
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Robin Eldin
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If either the Heroe side or Consul side Wins early, the loosing side is clearly doing something wrong.

When we are playing, its pretty balanced, sometimes one side get a small overtake but if we continue playing, it often turns.

Some people might also quit before the miniboss and or boss comes out, thats changes everything.

If you think the game is great itself, but having an hard time with one side or another, write some tricks up, learn the rules better (if you're missing out some) and try again. The Paladin as an example must ALWAYS be picked whatever the other Heroes are in any game.

We loved the game but felt that it was pretty slow and sometimes un-balanced, I have now read all the newest rules aswell as writing everything up including tips and tricks for both heroes and the consul for a better gameplay and basic tactics.

Kind Regards,
Eldin.
 
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