Rick Vinyard
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As I was preparing the status update for day 3 of the 20 Most Anticipated Games of 2012 I was thinking about voting discrepancy between the Stronghold Games edition and Fantasy Flight Games edition... namely that there is a strong preference for the Stronghold Games edition.

There have been many debates, over which will be better, which is in the right, etc. That's not the question I am posing here.

What I am curious about is the motivation behind the voting... hence, another poll for those that already voted in the 20 Most... regarding the motivation behind your voting.

Of course, if you didn't vote for either then <jedi>these aren't the droids you're looking for. Move Along.</jedi>

Poll
Select all of the following that shaped your vote for either (or both) of the Stronghold Games or Fantasy Flight Games editions of Merchant of Venus in the 20 Most Anticipated Games of 2012.
  Your Answer   Vote Percent Vote Count
The Stronghold Games edition will be better.
44.6% 41
The Fantasy Flight edition will be better.
16.3% 15
Both editions will be good in their own way.
33.7% 31
Stronghold Games is in the right.
18.5% 17
Fantasy Flight is in the right.
6.5% 6
Stronghold Games should be voted down.
1.1% 1
Fantasy Flight should be voted down.
8.7% 8
Stronghold Games won't get it to print.
21.7% 20
Fantasy Flight won't get it to print.
1.1% 1
I voted only for Stronghold Games for another reason not listed above.
10.9% 10
I voted only for Fantasy Flight for another reason not listed above.
2.2% 2
I voted for both because I don't care who reprints it, as long as it gets reprinted.
12.0% 11
I voted for both because I want both editions.
6.5% 6
I voted for both for another reason not listed above.
1.1% 1
Voters 92
This poll is now closed.   92 answers
Poll created by rvinyard
Closes: Sun Jan 15, 2012 6:00 am


Note, that although you can't actually vote anyone down, I used the term since I think it's simpler than the option "I voted XXX up to increase the differential between XXX and YYY since I think YYY should be voted down."
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Tim Seitz
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Here's my rationale, and it has nothing to do with righteousness.

The people at Stronghold Games already have a track record of faithfully reprinting classic games, and Stronghold's components are top notch. FFG games tend to be fiddly, overburdened by chrome, and sold with expansions in mind for players to get the full-game experience.
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Paul Incao
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+1

out4blood wrote:
Here's my rationale, and it has nothing to do with righteousness.

The people at Stronghold Games already have a track record of faithfully reprinting classic games, and Stronghold's components are top notch. FFG games tend to be fiddly, overburdened by chrome, and sold with expansions in mind for players to get the full-game experience.
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John "Omega" Williams
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Why vote for Stronghold? (And note. I havent voted for either as it seems pointless till the legalities and whos doing what is sorted.)

FFG *allways* hyper-glitzes their games and allmost allways tinkers and alters the games rules in some way. I wouldnt mind the glitze if it didnt jack the price of the game far far more than otherwise. They also display a sometimes backhanded treatment of fans and those who support their product.

Stronghold, so far, tinkers very little with their games and, so far, has the better reputation. They tend to, so far, glitze less too so their games are, so far, more affordable and accessible.
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Richard Morris
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The 'in the right' questions would be far better if they were not black and white. No one on here knows who has the rights - all we have is speculation. If the choies were "I think XXX probably has the rights", we could pick that option. As it stands, we cannot (despite there being 5 who have done so as I write).

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Rick Vinyard
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Omega2064 wrote:
And note. I havent voted for either

I knew there would be at least one Toydarian out there.
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Rick Vinyard
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AnnuverScotinExile wrote:
The 'in the right' questions would be far better if they were not black and white. No one on here knows who has the rights - all we have is speculation. If the choies were "I think XXX probably has the rights", we could pick that option. As it stands, we cannot (despite there being 5 who have done so as I write).


Actually, I intentionally left it a little vague to allow a variety of opinions to fall under that response.. not just those of legal rights, as some believe that Stronghold is more right for working with Hamblen, while others believe FFG may be more in the right of a legal claim working with Hasbro.

The intent was to combine the legal/ethical dilemma into one response and the following two questions are a negation. I wanted to see if a like/dislike for one of the two companies and/or their legal position was a motivating factor.

So far, from the responses, it is as I initially guessed. The bulk of the responses to the first three questions indicate that it is the expectation of the product of the publisher that is a driving factor and not a moral/legal/emotional opinion that is driving voting.
 
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John "Omega" Williams
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Least for those voting so far. whistle
 
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I am not sure why people think the Stronghold edition will have awesome components. I have purchased both Survive and Confusion and I had at least one significant disappointment with each (bad painting and light-weight meeples for the first and a bad ink job on the red tiles for the latter).

But FFG seems to be pushing things out the door too quickly lately and getting things wrong that should be easy to fix (and it feels like they are pushing MoV as fast as they can).

So, I don' know which version I want. But it is my favorite game from that era. I might buy both versions!
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People think Stronghold MoV will have awesome components? Where?
Good components close to the originals in some way? Yes. FFG level glitze? No.
 
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Robert Cannon
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Well, even in this thread it says 'Stronghold's components are top notch'. Survive was disappointing, component-wise. Confusion is an awesome game, but it is very frustrating that the red pieces are not inked well.
The bottom line is that I think both companies have the potential to do an awesome job, but I am worried that either company will fall just short of that awesomeness.
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Val Ruza
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My understanding is that Stronghold does not tinker with the games they reprint. I like FFG and enjoy a number of their games but, what I really would like is an updated MoV with new graphics and hopefully better components. What I would rather not have is a FFG MoV for 4 players and the 5 - 6 player Saturn* expansion coming later.








* Well know planet name inserted for humour and no other reason.
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Belz wrote:
My understanding is that Stronghold does not tinker with the games they reprint. I like FFG and enjoy a number of their games but, what I really would like is an updated MoV with new graphics and hopefully better components. What I would rather not have is a FFG MoV for 4 players and the 5 - 6 player Saturn* expansion coming later.

It will obviously be "Merchant of Mars", with an updated combat expansion.
 
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Omega2064 wrote:
People think Stronghold MoV will have awesome components? Where?
Good components close to the originals in some way? Yes. FFG level glitze? No.


We already know what art they planned to use. FFG plastic, no. But the artwork would rival anything FFG can put out, especially the beautiful money.

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If I read right. The Stronghold version is using one of the popular art packs that is/was on the BGG. This is in part why Im not so enthused over their version. I didnt like the new depictions of the various races.

Such is. And hence why Im still sitting on the median line waiting. But all indicators so far are that the FFG version will be altered rules-wise whereas the Stronghold version wont. But might have new optionals from the designer like Survive did.
 
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out4blood wrote:
The people at Stronghold Games already have a track record of faithfully reprinting classic games


This and that they were going to use the DK art is why I looked forward to it.
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robcannonsoftware wrote:
Well, even in this thread it says 'Stronghold's components are top notch'. Survive was disappointing, component-wise. Confusion is an awesome game, but it is very frustrating that the red pieces are not inked well.
The bottom line is that I think both companies have the potential to do an awesome job, but I am worried that either company will fall just short of that awesomeness.


Survive suffered from components issues twice - the original release had some mis-cut tiles for some, the meeples were distinguishable if you tried, the bag was a bit flimsy, and pieces (boats, serpents, etc.) sometimes were stuck together or broken. Their fix for the meeples involved providing all new plastic meeples through an expansion, but I've heard many complaints that the included stickers don't stay stuck.

I would also note that many felt the rules for Code 777 didn't work, and Panic Station is currently on rules version 2.2 because of issues.

Please don't take anything I'm saying as a dig on Stronghold Games. I've purchased their products, have been pleased, and would do so again without reservation. I'm very thankful that they republished Survive, a game I enjoyed when I was a kid. I am thrilled to have the opportunity to introduce my son to it when he's old enough.

In my interactions with them regarding replacing components, they have been polite and timely in replacing them. They've been responsive on BGG regarding rules discussions. But so has FFG. So let's not pretend Stronghold can do no wrong and FFG screws up everything it touches. If you prefer to give your money to the "little guy," that's fine, but I think it's a shame when folks beat up on FFG when they've always been responsive to component issues, generally put out a quality production, and have helped expand our hobby. Personally, I think there is room for both of them to be successful, and I hope they are.
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gversace wrote:

In my interactions with them regarding replacing components, they have been polite and timely in replacing them. They've been responsive on BGG regarding rules discussions. But so has FFG. So let's not pretend Stronghold can do no wrong and FFG screws up everything it touches. If you prefer to give your money to the "little guy," that's fine, but I think it's a shame when folks beat up on FFG when they've always been responsive to component issues, generally put out a quality production, and have helped expand our hobby. Personally, I think there is room for both of them to be successful, and I hope they are.


We'll have to agree to disagree here. stronghold has had undeniable issues. They as not perfect. However, each game they have produced is looking better than the last. They clearly learn from their mistakes. outpost is great in my opinion.

FFG may have also started out like that, although I remember having to download errata for even their earlier titles. The difference I see now is that FFG appears to be sliding ever faster downhill with poorly edited rules/components and unplayable scenarios out of the box. And when they tinker with an established title, I often do not think they make it better. Prettier, yes. Better, no.

I also think FFG does need to be called to task when they mess something up. If not, what encouragement do they have to make a better product. Look at the Mansions of Madness and expansions fiascos to see that they aren't getting it on their own.

I think stronghold has less of a chance of this happening as each game for them could be a disaster if it is broken and does not sell well. If one of FFGs expansions or games flops it will Have significantly less effect on the bottom line.

I think FFG can do a good version of this game if they don't let themselves get in their own way. However, based on recent issues they have had, I question whether that will be done if the speculation that they are rushing it's development to beat stronghold are true.
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Having just received a FFG Hobit game made in China, with substandard printing and a board that just doesn't quite fit- well I'll be disappointed, but not surprised if Stronghold doesn't get it's one out.
I guess I'll have to work on the print n play files I downloaded!
 
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