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Subject: 3 actions per turn? rss

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Jay Lacson
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Has anyone tried house-ruling 3 actions per turn instead of the usual 2? I've not played the game yet, but reading the rules and a few comments...it seems 2 is very limiting.

You have to spend half your actions in the game just to max out a tech tree. It just seems like you don't get enough opportunity to play/explore the tech trees during the game...and a couple people have said declaring war(which seems like a fun part of the game) is hardly ever used.

It would seem an extra action per turn would increase the opportunity for more conflict(which I like), allow more configurations with the tech tree(another good thing), and overall make the game a lot less limited.

Or is allowing 3 actions per turn game-breaking?

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Dwarf Bashful the 6th
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arcane220 wrote:
Has anyone tried house-ruling 3 actions per turn instead of the usual 2? I've not played the game yet, but reading the rules and a few comments...it seems 2 is very limiting.

You have to spend half your actions in the game just to max out a tech tree. It just seems like you don't get enough opportunity to play/explore the tech trees during the game...and a couple people have said declaring war(which seems like a fun part of the game) is hardly ever used.

It would seem an extra action per turn would increase the opportunity for more conflict(which I like), allow more configurations with the tech tree(another good thing), and overall make the game a lot less limited.

Or is allowing 3 actions per turn game-breaking?



I have not tried to play 3 actions instead of 2 per turn and I think that by giving the additional action just to increase the ability of developing technology is not needed. Arcane, you made a good point stating that game itself seems 'tight' with the actions, but there is in my opinion a reason behind, which may be also valid for you. I believe that in W&T the main idea is to make a strategy which will give you enough VP to reach a victory conditions. It is not a war game, and wars are very expensive for both - the attacker and the defender. So again - you have to think if fighting is a way to stop someone from winning (you have to be sure that by fighting you will not provide additional points to the opponent so actually you will not help him to win), or unifying his country or just for spicing the game.

Coming back to your main concern about Development tokens and tech trees. You have many ways of getting Development Tokens:
1. you can spend 1 or both actions just to get Development tokens
2. you can buy an additional action after you reach a certain level on one of the paths - and use it for a Development Token
- level VII on Production - UNIVERSITY: you may take 1 extra action during Development Phase
- level level VI on Trade - MASTER TRADER: you may buy 1 extra Action in the Dev Phase each turn
3. in each turn the last thing in the Development Phase each of the players can do is to move 1 Development Token on the play-mat from the top of one technology paths to another - it can actually help you to be able to get a better trade rate just for one turn or to be able to build a better army
4. after unifying the country once per game - you are getting an action points, number of action point differs from the no. of provinces of your country you unify; and again - you can spend all of them on Development Tokens, it means that eg whoever unify France with all 7 provinces will get 9 action points - you can actually get 9 Development tokens, isn't it cool! )

A! And one more - you are taking actions in order, so 3 actions may actually have a big strategical influence on the game.. not sure it would work. I will try to snick this idea of playing 3 actions when I'll play W&T next time. Till then!

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Jay Lacson
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Yeah, after thinking it over. 3 actions does seem a bit much, especially considering the actions awarded after the unification phase.

My main concern wasn't primarily to explore the development tree. Instead, I wanted the different aspects of the game have more interaction with each other.

In your example, you said you can gain an extra action in Production by reaching Level VII. However, to do so...you have to spend at minimum 9 actions to do so. That's 9 of the 20 actions (or 26 if you count the bonus actions). Almost half your game is spent trying to get an extra action. Sure, you can go for Trade instead to get an extra action faster...but, now you're pigeon-holed into Trade. And not to mention, while you're trying advance the tech tree...you're neglecting the rest of the game. (Ok, now rethinking it again....3 doesn't seem like too much)

It just seems that there's no freedom to explore vastly different tech tree combos, no freedom to combine strategies...basically, I guess my complaint is that there's no freedom to explore the game. And just from reading the rules, this game has a lot to explore.

I'm interested in hearing your results playing with 3 actions.
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Heavy Fives
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Arcane, from my experiences with W&T towards the end of the game you can have one path full (L VII) and another around half (L III - V). After all this ain't Diablo II to have more ways of playing a character. You focus on one path and develop a second to support you. There aren't too many combinations. Also don't forget about the "end-phase" token movement that's a way to change your strategy even if it's slow.

Indeed the game has a lot to offer, but you won't get everything in just one game. You can play one game as Trader-Builder, another as Warrior-Trader and so on.
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Dwarf Bashful the 6th
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arcane220 wrote:
Yeah, after thinking it over. 3 actions does seem a bit much, especially considering the actions awarded after the unification phase.

My main concern wasn't primarily to explore the development tree. Instead, I wanted the different aspects of the game have more interaction with each other.


The best way to get more interaction is to develop high on the Trade path. This will give you a good opportunity to prolong the game 'on your term' as other player will depend on you. And of course, it is giving you also a good defense - as long as you do not charge too high

arcane220 wrote:
In your example, you said you can gain an extra action in Production by reaching Level VII. However, to do so...you have to spend at minimum 9 actions to do so. That's 9 of the 20 actions (or 26 if you count the bonus actions). Almost half your game is spent trying to get an extra action. Sure, you can go for Trade instead to get an extra action faster...but, now you're pigeon-holed into Trade. And not to mention, while you're trying advance the tech tree...you're neglecting the rest of the game. (Ok, now rethinking it again....3 doesn't seem like too much)

It just seems that there's no freedom to explore vastly different tech tree combos, no freedom to combine strategies...basically, I guess my complaint is that there's no freedom to explore the game. And just from reading the rules, this game has a lot to explore.

I'm interested in hearing your results playing with 3 actions.


Arcane, I think you calculated it wrong. To get to the top of one of the tech trees you need tops 4 turns where both actions you use for Development tokens. Do not forget about starting conditions of the game: each player have 3 Development tokens at the beginning which they can set on the play-mats any way they want.

And I have to agree with ghanima that each time you play W&T, you have this advantage, that you can play differently. By developing one main tech and supporting it with one more, you have chance to be more powerful. If you choose to develop all 3 techs middle way, than you are average on all. From my experience on W&T I can tell you that I am always 'adjusting' my strategy to the players i play with. After 2-3 turns you have a good idea, who is focusing on what and I am using the missing 'piece' in my advantage.

I'll post whenever I will manage to play with 3 actions. If you will play it first - let me know how it went.
 
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Jay Lacson
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Ah, you're right. 8 actions out of 20. Still a bit lacking. I really want to get this to the table. Hopefully when my friends return from the holidays, I'll be able to play it.

I'll play it first with the normal 2 actions though.
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Alexandru Aleman
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arcane220 wrote:
Ah, you're right. 8 actions out of 20. Still a bit lacking. I really want to get this to the table. Hopefully when my friends return from the holidays, I'll be able to play it.

I'll play it first with the normal 2 actions though.


I guess you can still try that our or even better, increase for yourselves the number of turns if you want to see where you can take it.
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Tony Barrett
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I have played twice and can only agree that you spend too much of your actions placing things on the tech tree. This means you end the game feeling that it has ended too soon.

I can see 3 options to change this

1 - 3 actions per turn
2 - Build any number of units when you build army
3 - Start with between 6 and 9 development tokens

Are other people feeling like me? I really like the core game but the surely the game should not just be kill some locals and then build forts.
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Heavy Fives
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hey Tony,

The game is supposed to take around 2h, depending on number of players, game type and how much time is spent during trading phase. I guess the developers didn't want a game that goes on and one because no one is in position to win.

Now about your suggestions:
1. Remember that players take action from the lowest to the highest and then the other way around. If you maintain this algorithm then you need at least 4 actions and that might be a bit too much.
2. Limited by the resources you have I presume, well that's interesting from my point of view. maybe you can with this modified rule and then post and let everyone know how it was.
3. One fully developed path has 11 tokens and it takes 8 to get level 6, so basically you would start the game with one path already developed and you'll just have to choose a second one that would complement your first one. Bad idea from my point of view.

In the end this game ain't about epic battles, it's more about careful planing, very careful I might say. That's why everything is in such short supply.
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