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Subject: Iran is saber rattling...in the meantime... rss

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Trey Stone
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http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/u-navy-rescues-iranians-so...

You're welcome.

Oh, and fuck you, mullahs, Amadeenizhad, and all those who say the US is no better than any comparable power in history.
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Ed Bradley
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What about the troops and materiel that the US is quietly moving into Israel?

4k troops and some serious radar + antimissile tech. Or so I hear.
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Boaty McBoatface
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http://www.britishbattles.com/waterloo/battle-copenhagen.htm rescuing saliors in distress is nothing new. So the US is no beter then anyone else.
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Moshe Callen
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Fwing wrote:
What about the troops and materiel that the US is quietly moving into Israel?

4k troops and some serious radar + antimissile tech. Or so I hear.

In a country this small, we'd notice if this was happening.
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Boaty McBoatface
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whac3 wrote:
Fwing wrote:
What about the troops and materiel that the US is quietly moving into Israel?

4k troops and some serious radar + antimissile tech. Or so I hear.

In a country this small, we'd otice if this was happening.


But would you admit it?
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pronoblem baalberith
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tstone wrote:
Oh, and fuck you, mullahs, Amadeenizhad, and all those who say the US is no better than any comparable power in history.


What of those that say it is worse than others in history... like myself, I would say that.
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tstone wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/u-navy-rescues-iranians-so...

You're welcome.

Oh, and fuck you, mullahs, Amadeenizhad, and all those who say the US is no better than any comparable power in history.


Fuck yeah.

A German submarine rescued an enemy crew in WW2. Does this make Nazi Germany "better"?

Sorry, but America is not better.
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Trey Stone
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slatersteven wrote:
http://www.britishbattles.com/waterloo/battle-copenhagen.htm rescuing saliors in distress is nothing new. So the US is no beter then anyone else.


Yes, we are.
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Trey Stone
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pronoblem wrote:
tstone wrote:
Oh, and fuck you, mullahs, Amadeenizhad, and all those who say the US is no better than any comparable power in history.


What of those that say it is worse than others in history... like myself, I would say that.


Yeah, but given everything you've said about your framework thus far, it's not exactly something I would take seriously.

But I thought I've made that clear. If not, we are clear now.
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Trey Stone
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Hegel wrote:
tstone wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/u-navy-rescues-iranians-so...

You're welcome.

Oh, and fuck you, mullahs, Amadeenizhad, and all those who say the US is no better than any comparable power in history.


Fuck yeah.

A German submarine rescued an enemy crew in WW2. Does this make Nazi Germany "better"?

Sorry, but America is not better.


Actions of Nazi Germany, vs US policy in WW2, to provide a framework. Was that crew better? Hell yes. They acquitted themselves as men of honor. Was the government and nation better? Or even as good?

Not even close.
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Trey Stone
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To assert excellence is not to assert perfection.

For every police power abuse story in the news, there are countless cops, the vast majority, doing their job, mostly thanklessly, putting themselves in harms way to keep people safe.

IE to throw up a bloody picture is an emotional effect, not an argument.

I would also add an emotional effect of the most shallow and cynical.
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tstone wrote:
Hegel wrote:
tstone wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/envoy/u-navy-rescues-iranians-so...

You're welcome.

Oh, and fuck you, mullahs, Amadeenizhad, and all those who say the US is no better than any comparable power in history.


Fuck yeah.

A German submarine rescued an enemy crew in WW2. Does this make Nazi Germany "better"?

Sorry, but America is not better.


Actions of Nazi Germany, vs US policy in WW2, to provide a framework. Was that crew better? Hell yes. They acquitted themselves as men of honor. Was the government and nation better? Or even as good?

Not even close.


So why not apply that same logic to these events?
 
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tstone wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
http://www.britishbattles.com/waterloo/battle-copenhagen.htm rescuing saliors in distress is nothing new. So the US is no beter then anyone else.


Yes, we are.

How?
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tstone wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
http://www.britishbattles.com/waterloo/battle-copenhagen.htm rescuing saliors in distress is nothing new. So the US is no beter then anyone else.


Yes, we are.

I would have to disagree, to be better you have todo stuff that no one else does, that is clearly not true. Hell you can't even end slavery without a fight.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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zuludawn wrote:
tstone wrote:
IE to throw up a bloody picture is an emotional effect, not an argument.


This is true; but whenever I hear an American crowing about his country's greatness, it is this image that comes to my mind.

However, to limit the present argument to the issue raised in your original post: you cite a story about a naval rescue and from that you seem to make the extraordinary extrapolation that the United States is the best nation in history. That is absurd on its face, a non sequitur so illogical it defies a logical response. I'll simply point out that every maritime nation on earth has its tradition of rescue at sea, and that such rescues, while commendable, do not confer national greatness.

tstone wrote:

I would also add an emotional effect of the most shallow and cynical.


The emotional effect of that image on me is neither shallow nor cynical. That you would call it so merely indicates to me that you not a person worth arguing with.



Its just as shallow and cynical as making a big thing about rescuing someone at sea.
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Lapppi wrote:
tstone wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
http://www.britishbattles.com/waterloo/battle-copenhagen.htm rescuing sailors in distress is nothing new. So the US is no better then anyone else.


Yes, we are.


How?


The U.S. aspires to be better. Many countries do- but many countries do not.

I was taught in school that the U.S. should be the shining beacon on a hill, that the U.S. should set an example of correct behavior.

As religion has lost sway over society and the corporations have taken over, I think we've lost a lot of those qualities but they are not completely gone yet. (for the new here, note I'm an atheist).

So perhaps in another 20 years the U.S. will be no better. The thought of a U.S. unrestrained by morality is pretty frightening, no?

---

The Germans were pretty decent until the U.S. and British screwed them over while they were trying to rescue the Italian P.O.W.'s and the crew. At that point, they issued orders to stop rescuing survivors.
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Boaty McBoatface
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maxo-texas wrote:
Lapppi wrote:
tstone wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
http://www.britishbattles.com/waterloo/battle-copenhagen.htm rescuing sailors in distress is nothing new. So the US is no better then anyone else.


Yes, we are.


How?


The U.S. aspires to be better. Many countries do- but many countries do not.

I was taught in school that the U.S. should be the shining beacon on a hill, that the U.S. should set an example of correct behavior.

As religion has lost sway over society and the corporations have taken over, I think we've lost a lot of those qualities but they are not completely gone yet. (for the new here, note I'm an atheist).

So perhaps in another 20 years the U.S. will be no better. The thought of a U.S. unrestrained by morality is pretty frightening, no?


As you say many countries say they want to aspire to be better, so the US is not unique in that. You judge a nation by its actions, not by how it sees itself.

As to a U.S. unrestrained by morality, Wounded Knee, The trail of tears, Andersonville, slavery, apartheid. Yes a USA without its old values is a terrible thing.
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Boaty McBoatface
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maxo-texas wrote:
[q="Lapppi"]

The Germans were pretty decent until the U.S. and British screwed them over while they were trying to rescue the Italian P.O.W.'s and the crew. At that point, they issued orders to stop rescuing survivors.


This is the same US that is better then other countires to the world?
 
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Mac Mcleod
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slatersteven wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
[q="Lapppi"]

The Germans were pretty decent until the U.S. and British screwed them over while they were trying to rescue the Italian P.O.W.'s and the crew. At that point, they issued orders to stop rescuing survivors.


This is the same US that is better then other countires to the world?


Yup.

Also the same country that firebombed Dresden and Tokyo.

It's like your nice brother who turns psycho when you piss him off and then is nice again the next day-- no hard feelings.

There are countries who don't even try to be nice and feel trying to be nice is dumb. There are countries which are better than the U.S. There are plenty of countries that are worse.

It's not uncommon that folks start to feel "Well you are going to bust the U.S. chops anyway- so why bother trying any more." Also, the government is a lot more hard-nosed and evil- even against U.S. citizens. It's been massively corrupted by power, money, and corporate influence. It's reaching shameless proportions.

okay-- back to bed. Work emergency cleared. Very tired.
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Boaty McBoatface
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maxo-texas wrote:
slatersteven wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
[q="Lapppi"]

The Germans were pretty decent until the U.S. and British screwed them over while they were trying to rescue the Italian P.O.W.'s and the crew. At that point, they issued orders to stop rescuing survivors.


This is the same US that is better then other countires to the world?


Yup.

Also the same country that firebombed Dresden and Tokyo.

It's like your nice brother who turns psycho when you piss him off and then is nice again the next day-- no hard feelings.

There are countries who don't even try to be nice and feel trying to be nice is dumb. There are countries which are better than the U.S. There are plenty of countries that are worse.

It's not uncommon that folks start to feel "Well you are going to bust the U.S. chops anyway- so why bother trying any more." Also, the government is a lot more hard-nosed and evil- even against U.S. citizens. It's been massively corrupted by power, money, and corporate influence. It's reaching shameless proportions.

okay-- back to bed. Work emergency cleared. Very tired.


Unlike Tammany hall or the Chicargo machine you mean?
 
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tstone wrote:

Oh, and fuck you, mullahs, Amadeenizhad, and all those who say the US is no better than any comparable power in history.


That's right, because we all know that saying "fuck you" to people with whom you disagree is what makes America better than all those comparable historical powers! Oh, hang on, the power to say fuck you to those with whom you disagree is the only comparable power America really has with anything. This would be a paradox if it weren't so sad.
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zuludawn wrote:
The emotional effect of that image on me is neither shallow nor cynical. That you would call it so merely indicates to me that you not a person worth arguing with.



Then don't. Bye.
 
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MisterCranky wrote:
tstone wrote:

Oh, and fuck you, mullahs, Amadeenizhad, and all those who say the US is no better than any comparable power in history.


That's right, because we all know that saying "fuck you" to people with whom you disagree is what makes America better than all those comparable historical powers! Oh, hang on, the power to say fuck you to those with whom you disagree is the only comparable power America really has with anything. This would be a paradox if it weren't so sad.


No...I was not saying that America's greatness gives me the "power" to do anything of the sort. You made an assertion of an indication that I most certainly did not apply.

I say, "fuck you" to those who tear down America (far beyond mere disagreement) because they deserve it.

And it's fun.

 
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maxo-texas wrote:

There are countries who don't even try to be nice and feel trying to be nice is dumb. There are countries which are better than the U.S. There are plenty of countries that are worse.



I would agree, though I would add that none of those countries that are "better" compare in levels of power and influence.

In other words, it is easy to be a pacifist when no one views you as a threat, obstacle or someone who can interfere with one's ambitions.

It is easy to be a celibate when no one wants you.
 
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What on Earth is everyone comparing here?

How good the US is compared to everyone else now? Only to those now with comparable power?

Or more historical? The US compared to other countries over the whole course of history? Are we comparing the US's 200 years of history to England's 1000 years? If we compare to Germany, which Germany are we talking about? Post Bismark, post Hilter, post reunification? Those could all be said to be Germany, but they are all pretty different too and considering it a continuous country is probably misleading.

Or are we considering the actions of the people? The government/the State? The system that creates the governments?

And how are we measuring "better"? Holding some code of ethics, role in the world, how it treats it's own citizens, other countries' citizens? Some kind of overall average of "goodness".

You can talk about these things in general, but the more vague people are the more meaningless it is.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to compare, say, the British Empire and the current US, but that's probably the easiest and meaningful inter-empire comparison to make. And I think it's still pretty much impossible to say which is "better" and which is worse in a general sense.
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