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Subject: starbase rss

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Chris Bahrke
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..on the tech-chart of everybody a starbase is preprinted - to my understanding of the rules this means, that everybody has already researched that tech and is able to build a starbase..

so why are there some further tech-tokens referring to research a starbase ?

tnx, chris
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Ken Armstrong
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The aliens do not start with starbases, they have to research them.
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chris cymru
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Calgary
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only the terrans have starbases researched. the other aliens do not.
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Antti Koskinen
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Berlin Bear wrote:
..on the tech-chart of everybody a starbase is preprinted - to my understanding of the rules this means, that everybody has already researched that tech and is able to build a starbase..

so why are there some further tech-tokens referring to research a starbase ?

tnx, chris


For the situations where there are no preprinted starbase techs preprinted and someone really needs to research the tech.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Berlin Bear wrote:
..on the tech-chart of everybody a starbase is preprinted - to my understanding of the rules this means, that everybody has already researched that tech and is able to build a starbase..

so why are there some further tech-tokens referring to research a starbase ?

tnx, chris


Try turning your player mats over:
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Alex Sorbello
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ChrisCymru wrote:
only the terrans have starbases researched. the other aliens do not.


Actually planta has star bases as well.
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David Tomic
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If all play terrans, are you allowed to remove all starbase tech tiles from the bag since they are not meaningful when drawn? At least we play like this.
 
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Mark Wignall
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Nope. Well, not at least by the designers' choice. But it's your game, your house, your rules


I havn't done the math, but by doing so it could prevent enough tiles to be drawn on the last turn depending on players.
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René Krause
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I think, even with all playing Humans, the Starbase technology is not sorted out. Drawing a Starbase tech tile is just like there's no new tech available. It shortens the possibility of getting new tech.
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David Tomic
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OK, thanks for the clarification.
However, I believe that drawing starbases when all players are terran adds another random element of how probable you are to get some good new tech tiles provided you will be the first player so it seems that it will be a more fair or at least interesting game without them. One could imagine that all starbase tiles are drawn in the final round for the sake of technicality. But then this would be a house rule.
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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No, the game would be less interesting, because you would be more likely to draw multiples of any given technology, which means multiple people can get the technology. This means if you aren't the first person to get a technology, there's less pressure on you since you can just get the other copy.

Whereas if sometimes those tech draws are Starbases (and thus useless), you are pressured to be the first person to pick up a tech when only one shows up.

This is much more exciting.
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Antti Autio
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Gina, Escher gang leader (Necromunda). Don't mess with her or she'll kick your ass.. actually, she's gonna do it anyway!
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taggedjc wrote:
No, the game would be less interesting, because you would be more likely to draw multiples of any given technology, which means multiple people can get the technology. This means if you aren't the first person to get a technology, there's less pressure on you since you can just get the other copy.

Whereas if sometimes those tech draws are Starbases (and thus useless), you are pressured to be the first person to pick up a tech when only one shows up.

This is much more exciting.

This.
 
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The Friendly Meeple
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taggedjc wrote:
No, the game would be less interesting, because you would be more likely to draw multiples of any given technology, which means multiple people can get the technology. This means if you aren't the first person to get a technology, there's less pressure on you since you can just get the other copy.

Whereas if sometimes those tech draws are Starbases (and thus useless), you are pressured to be the first person to pick up a tech when only one shows up.

This is much more exciting.


I think the interesting and exciting part of researching technology are the choices you have to make between the tiles that are drawn, and leaving the Starbase tiles in when playing all terran species actually decreases your choices. There is nothing interesting, exciting, nor pressuring if my choice is between a tech I want and a tech I already have as my starting tech. That useless Starbase could be any other tech I haven't researched yet and my choices are guaranteed to be more interesting than something I started the game with.

If my choice is between Advanced Labs, which I want and I'm pretty sure at least one other player wants, Improved Hull, which I could use but doubt it will still be there my next turn, and Starbase, which I started with, I'm taking Advanced Labs. If that useless Starbase is Quantum Grid now I have to decide how useful the extra science I get from Advanced Labs is compared to the extra actions I can get.

I don't think multiples of a tech are that bad either because you don't know how long they are going to stay available, you could skip taking one and they could be gone by time your turn comes back around, and they could make decisions more difficult. If that useless Starbase was another Advanced Labs now I have to decide if I gamble on taking the single Improved Hull and hope Advanced Labs is still there my next turn. If there is one Plasma Missile out there I don't care if the player across the galaxy that picks next gets them, but if that useless Starbase is another Plasma Missile maybe I don't take Advanced Labs but take Plasma Missile instead to prevent my neighbor who picks third from getting them. That useless Starbase could be a Fusion Drive, or a second Fusion Drive, and might not ever be picked by me, but is still presents a more interesting choice and another option for me than the Starbase does.
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Jeremy Diachuk
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It also means it's more likely for a given tech to show up in the game, even though the later techs using the normal rules won't always show up.

If a tech you wanted to research never shows up, then if you kept yourself flexible then you would be rewarded for that flexibility. Whereas if you take out the duplicate techs, any given tech would be more likely to show up at some point (and more often before the last round). So if you are just holding out until you can get Antimatter Cannon or Plasma Missiles, it makes that waiting game much more of a valid strategy, when the idea of Eclipse is to have a flexible and adaptive strategy.

In your first example, Quantum Grid isn't going to be a technology you can afford just as easily as Advanced Labs or Improved Hull. What if, for example, instead of the "Useless" Starbase, you had drawn Wormhole Generator? It's about as useless at this point in the game, and just means you know it might be an option for later. Certainly won't change your current strategy. As for multiples of the same tech, this does make a difference. If there are two of a technology, even in a many-player game, it is much more likely for them to stick around: everyone will be thinking the same thing (that since there are two, they're likely to stick around, so they can pass it up and it might be there when it comes back around, or comes to the next round) so you would pick them up only if you felt you needed it enough to make sure you got it. On the other hand, if only one came up, you know you need it right away, and if you grab it, it gives you an edge against everyone else. If there are two copies and you grab the first, then another player can still go and get it. As an example, if there's only one Improved Hull, and no other helpful technologies against Ancients, then if you grab it early, then you're setting back all of the other players by at least one round as they will be unable to easily defeat any Ancients. But if there are multiples, then at least one other player (likely your left neighbour) is going to be able to confront the Ancients easily enough and then also pose a similar threat to you.
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Chris Bahrke
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..well, i actually turned over my player-board to the alien side and what did i see ?

a starbase preprinted on it...

but to be honest: i didn`t look at the other mats..
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The Friendly Meeple
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taggedjc wrote:
It also means it's more likely for a given tech to show up in the game, even though the later techs using the normal rules won't always show up.

If a tech you wanted to research never shows up, then if you kept yourself flexible then you would be rewarded for that flexibility. Whereas if you take out the duplicate techs, any given tech would be more likely to show up at some point (and more often before the last round). So if you are just holding out until you can get Antimatter Cannon or Plasma Missiles, it makes that waiting game much more of a valid strategy, when the idea of Eclipse is to have a flexible and adaptive strategy.

In your first example, Quantum Grid isn't going to be a technology you can afford just as easily as Advanced Labs or Improved Hull. What if, for example, instead of the "Useless" Starbase, you had drawn Wormhole Generator? It's about as useless at this point in the game, and just means you know it might be an option for later. Certainly won't change your current strategy. As for multiples of the same tech, this does make a difference. If there are two of a technology, even in a many-player game, it is much more likely for them to stick around: everyone will be thinking the same thing (that since there are two, they're likely to stick around, so they can pass it up and it might be there when it comes back around, or comes to the next round) so you would pick them up only if you felt you needed it enough to make sure you got it. On the other hand, if only one came up, you know you need it right away, and if you grab it, it gives you an edge against everyone else. If there are two copies and you grab the first, then another player can still go and get it. As an example, if there's only one Improved Hull, and no other helpful technologies against Ancients, then if you grab it early, then you're setting back all of the other players by at least one round as they will be unable to easily defeat any Ancients. But if there are multiples, then at least one other player (likely your left neighbour) is going to be able to confront the Ancients easily enough and then also pose a similar threat to you.


Even if the Wormhole Generator is useless now it presents a dilemma. How long do I let it sit there and take a chance my neighbor with those Plasma Missiles gets it? I know exactly how long I'm going to let the Starbase sit there.

I think multiples of a tech create an interesting game of chicken, sure everyone can think it will stick around and try to gamble, that's what makes the decision making fun and not feel auto-programmed. I know what to do if my choice is between a tech I want and the Starbase, but what do I do if there are two of the tech I want or two different techs I want?

I agree there is a chance more different techs can show up in the game, but there are only five Starbase tiles in the bag, so I don't think there is going to be a catastrophic change in the game if you take them out, and I'd rather play a game where everyone is blowing each other up with Antimatter Cannons and Plasma Missiles and my left neighbor may pose a threat to me than eveyone looking at Starbase tech they can't research.
 
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