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Subject: player elimination changes number of tech tiles drawn? rss

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Richard Grant
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If a player gets eliminated from the game do you still carry on taking the same number of tech tiles. In the game we were playing someone was eliminated from a 6 player game. Do we carry on taking 9 tech tiles or just take 8 in subsequent turns because there is now only 5 players.
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Jonathan Ramundi
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Good question. I'd imagine you can continue drawing 9 and it's like a bonus for the survivors.
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Steve Westrip
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You should keep drawing the same number of tiles as the eliminated player(s) are still in the game. They still produce 2 of each resource and can buy technology tiles. See the last section on page 21 of the rules.
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Richard Grant
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sgwestrip wrote:
You should keep drawing the same number of tiles as the eliminated player(s) are still in the game. They still produce 2 of each resource and can buy technology tiles. See the last section on page 21 of the rules.


But in our case the player gave up
 
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Steve Westrip
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richiban wrote:
sgwestrip wrote:
You should keep drawing the same number of tiles as the eliminated player(s) are still in the game. They still produce 2 of each resource and can buy technology tiles. See the last section on page 21 of the rules.


But in our case the player gave up


There is no way any game design can have rules for players who just give up.
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Ian Kelly
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The rules don't say, but I would think you would only draw tiles for the number of players still in the game.
 
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Ian Kelly
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sgwestrip wrote:
richiban wrote:
sgwestrip wrote:
You should keep drawing the same number of tiles as the eliminated player(s) are still in the game. They still produce 2 of each resource and can buy technology tiles. See the last section on page 21 of the rules.


But in our case the player gave up


There is no way any game design can have rules for players who just give up.


And yet, this one does. Page 21 specifically allows eliminated players to give up instead of continuing to play.
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Richard Grant
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sgwestrip wrote:
richiban wrote:
sgwestrip wrote:
You should keep drawing the same number of tiles as the eliminated player(s) are still in the game. They still produce 2 of each resource and can buy technology tiles. See the last section on page 21 of the rules.


But in our case the player gave up


There is no way any game design can have rules for players who just give up.


But there is rules for giving up.
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Steve Westrip
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Peristarkawan wrote:
sgwestrip wrote:
richiban wrote:
sgwestrip wrote:
You should keep drawing the same number of tiles as the eliminated player(s) are still in the game. They still produce 2 of each resource and can buy technology tiles. See the last section on page 21 of the rules.


But in our case the player gave up


There is no way any game design can have rules for players who just give up.


And yet, this one does. Page 21 specifically allows eliminated players to give up instead of continuing to play.


But no mention of reducing the tech tiles drawn so carry on drawing the original amount.
 
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Ian Kelly
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Cleanup Phase: "Draw new Technology Tiles (according to the number of players) from the bag..."

Note it doesn't say "according to the original number of players", just "according to the number of players". Since one player gave up, the number of players is reduced, so you should draw a reduced number of tiles.
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David Tomic
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Looking at page 21 I would like to ask 2 questions then.

1) If you give up, why do you still count your score? For pure fun or is it thought that you as a side are still part of the game even if you as a physical person have went home to get some sleep? If it would only say that you give up and return your components to the box, then OK it would be clear you are considered to be one player less, ut with that wording it feels more like one has already finished the game and the other ones capitalise on the vaccum left by him/her? meaning you draw as many tech tiles as in previous rounds.You don't adjust the number of sector III tiles if someone gives up do you?

2) It says on page 21 that when you are eliminated from the board that you still produce a minimum of 2 of each resource, but this contradicts another statement in a thread where it was said that you are allowed to put back cubes from white "planets" on any of the three tracks and also covering the "2" box. Then if you get eliminated at that point, it would rather mean that you will always have three boxes uncovered and would produce some resources? For example zero of both orange and brown and 4 of pink?

Sorry if this turned out to be 3 questions, but the 2nd one was a semi-rethorical question and still part of question one, kind of....
 
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Ian Kelly
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Blackbird Mystic wrote:
1) If you give up, why do you still count your score? For pure fun or is it thought that you as a side are still part of the game even if you as a physical person have went home to get some sleep? If it would only say that you give up and return your components to the box, then OK it would be clear you are considered to be one player less, ut with that wording it feels more like one has already finished the game and the other ones capitalise on the vaccum left by him/her? meaning you draw as many tech tiles as in previous rounds.


I don't really see it that way. Just because six people have scores for a game does not mean there must have been exactly six players at the end of the game. Assigning a score to the player who gave up is good because it lets them walk away from the game with something, instead of feeling like they have to pointlessly stick out the rest of the game just to be included on the final scoreboard.

For me, the main reason to draw fewer tiles not to conform with a legalistic sense of the decreed number of players in the game, but to match the design of the game mechanics. The technology refreshment rate for 6 players is balanced with the idea that there will be 6 players removing technologies from the board. If you're adding technologies for 6 players and only 5 players are removing them, then it's unbalanced.

Quote:
You don't adjust the number of sector III tiles if someone gives up do you?


No, those were allocated at the start of the game. Likewise, I wouldn't remove technologies that have already been drawn. I just would not continue to add new technologies for a player who will no longer be using them.

Quote:
2) It says on page 21 that when you are eliminated from the board that you still produce a minimum of 2 of each resource, but this contradicts another statement in a thread where it was said that you are allowed to put back cubes from white "planets" on any of the three tracks and also covering the "2" box. Then if you get eliminated at that point, it would rather mean that you will always have three boxes uncovered and would produce some resources? For example zero of both orange and brown and 4 of pink?


I think the statement in the rulebook is an over-generalization. Normally you would end up with 2/2/2 after losing all population, but as you mention there are ways it could come out differently.
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Jim Richardson

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I'm still not convinced that the giving up option is related to the "eliminated" option and I've explained why. I say "eliminated" in quotes because you can't be totally eliminated - you still exist as a player, are producing some resources and can purchase tech tiles. Because of this, the original question is invalid. There is no player elimination.

However, assuming there is "giving up" as seems to be stated in the manual, then if the player does leave the game and stops producing, I would say you should reduce the number of techs accordingly.
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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It's related because you're only allowed to "give up" if you've been eliminated (from the board).


I would say to keep drawing the Technology as appropriate, actually. The reason is because if someone gives up instead of continuing, it's because they feel they wouldn't be able to buy enough Technologies to get any additional Victory Points (as this is the only way they can receive any additional Victory Points), which means they're not likely to have purchased many (if any at all) Technologies. Thus, the argument that the tile draw is appropriate for the number of players buying Technologies wouldn't matter, since if they stayed in the game, they wouldn't be buying technologies either. As someone else said, think of it as a bonus to the survivors. Giving up does give up one benefit: the start player piece can now go to someone else other than you.


I will note, however, that as-written the giving up rules are a smidge ambiguous - if you had diplomatic relations with other players, do you gather up those Ambassador tiles you gave to them, and return the Ambassador to the player? If so, this contradicts the rule that Ambassador tiles can only be lost if one of the two players betrays the other with the Traitor card..

Also, if you have the Traitor card when you are eliminated, if you want to give up, you have to count that in your score. On the other hand, if you wait, another player will perhaps gain the Traitor card instead, which means you would get 2 more VP at the end than otherwise (another reason to stick with the game, hah).

Also, if you have Ambassadors out, you could actually end up with 10 Science production per turn when you're eliminated (and 0 Materials/Money). Could be interesting to see if you can win despite elimination!
 
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David Tomic
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Yes, it seems the elimination/give up rule need some further explanation about the technology tiles drawn, ambassadors, traitor card etc just to be clear about what happens. If one player quits, there will be a vacuum on the board provided the player still had discs and ships in hexes at quitting time. And that would be to the advantage of that player's neighbours. Perhaps hexes owned by quitted players could be adjusted with ancients taking over?
 
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Jeremy Diachuk
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They can't have discs or ships remaining when they give up; you may only give up once you've been eliminated (and thus have no discs or ships on the board).
 
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Antti Autio
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In case a player was eliminated and gave up, I would reduce the number of tech tiles drawn to correspond to the number of active players in the game. No other adjustments really need to be made.

It's been discussed elsewhere and the fact is you can't give up unless you're eliminated from the board. The "two of each resource" statement should be read with the caveat "unless you've fiddled around with grey production squares/orbitals" - it just means you'll have three cubes "missing" from your tracks, but they may be in any combination of resources, depending on previous circumstances.
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Jeremy Diachuk
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(As a small note, you could theoretically have up to six cubes missing from your tracks, if you had Ambassadors that weren't involved in the coup to defeat you)
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David Tomic
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That seems to be an auto choice. If you are eliminated from the board, quickly establish diplomatic relations and therefore you will perhaps have a decent pink production each turn. No one will really have to worry breaking the diplomatic ties and get one cube less for "nothing".
 
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Ian Kelly
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Blackbird Mystic wrote:
That seems to be an auto choice. If you are eliminated from the board, quickly establish diplomatic relations and therefore you will perhaps have a decent pink production each turn. No one will really have to worry breaking the diplomatic ties and get one cube less for "nothing".


You have to do it before you're actually eliminated though, since without any board presence you can't establish diplomatic relations.
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Jeremy Diachuk
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In addition, the other player(s) would have to agree. They might prefer to gain Reputation tiles instead of getting one production and only 1 VP...
 
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David Tomic
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True, But suppose your last piece is an interceptor and you deliberately move to a 2 ancients hex, can you establish relations with those that have a wormhole to that hex prior to the outcome of the battle? Surely everyone would see that you will get eliminated and will get one VP + production for "nothing"?
 
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Ian Kelly
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Blackbird Mystic wrote:
True, But suppose your last piece is an interceptor and you deliberately move to a 2 ancients hex, can you establish relations with those that have a wormhole to that hex prior to the outcome of the battle? Surely everyone would see that you will get eliminated and will get one VP + production for "nothing"?


You can't form diplomatic relations from an interceptor. You have to have an influence disc connected to another player's influence disc.
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David Tomic
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Sorry, missed that in the rule book. Thanks!
 
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