Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

No Retreat! The Russian Front» Forums » Rules

Subject: 7.6 Unit Placement rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mario S.
Poland
flag msg tools
Hello,
according to rules 7.6 new units (reinforcement, replacement & recovering) are placed in cities (Soviet Units). Question is - is it possible to put two or more units in one city and then moves them? Or there is some rule that you can put only one unit in one city?

f.cz.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
montreal
Québec
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Feldmarshall Czupur wrote:
Hello,
according to rules 7.6 new units (reinforcement, replacement & recovering) are placed in cities (Soviet Units). Question is - is it possible to put two or more units in one city and then moves them? Or there is some rule that you can put only one unit in one city?

f.cz.


Very good question. NO you cannot do this without penalty. And it's intended to be like this in the rules.

Do not forget that you check stacking at the END of every phase or battle:

[8.4.3] Overstacking Penalty: At the end of any Phase or Battle, the owning player must put any excess units of his choice from that hex into the Shattered Units Box until it conforms to the stacking limit (8.4.), Unsupplied units are put in the Destroyed Units Box.

So if you have a unit that you want to put in a already stacked unit, the unit already there will be moved to the "Shattered" box, to be available next turn.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Germany
Bochum
NRW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
licinius wrote:

So if you have a unit that you want to put in a already stacked unit, the unit already there will be moved to the "Shattered" box, to be available next turn.


... or the new placed unit! - it's his choice, right?

(I know, Hairsplitting Ninja!)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
montreal
Québec
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Absolutely, it's his choice.

Although it would be the very rare case where younwould chose to move the reinfor ing unit in the shattered box!!! it did happen once in my game, to take advantage of a Soviet card event (can you what card?).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mario S.
Poland
flag msg tools
Got Mit Uns / Manpower Reserve ??
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
montreal
Québec
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Feldmarshall Czupur wrote:
Got Mit Uns / Manpower Reserve ??




 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Germany
Bochum
NRW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
licinius wrote:
Feldmarshall Czupur wrote:
Got Mit Uns / Manpower Reserve ??






ouh, thats sneaky... your game can really be played as a "Generals Simulator", but this game also can be "played"... there are some sneaky moves you can do...

some of em you HAVE to know... like the CB on Forts to crack em and follow up with an attack on your next turn...or the pre-attack-phase "retreating" of the soviet to prevent CBs and further possible german advances.

and others you don't... like entraining a supplied but VERY endangered CITY to prevent a CB, only to detrain it back in there at the EOT. (as the soviet player)

I love this game as a whole.
modest
sometimes I don't know if I like stuff like this: It gives the game more decisions to consider and therefore more depth - it rewards "veteran"-players... But it also makes it a game which you have to play 5 times till you know SOME of the moves you must know...

the CRT also has its own dynamic, too... and bigger is not always better... this is a little strange in my mind... and I heard some people trying to attack only at 5:1 or at 1:2 as the german...

Still! Great Use for a card like this!

Alex
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
montreal
Québec
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GangZda wrote:

and others you don't... like entraining a supplied but VERY endangered CITY to prevent a CB, only to detrain it back in there at the EOT. (as the soviet player)

the CRT also has its own dynamic, too... and bigger is not always better... this is a little strange in my mind... and I heard some people trying to attack only at 5:1 or at 1:2 as the german...

Alex


Ah but the "Endangered city" Rail move gambit is not always a good idea, in fact it's somewhat risky and I almost never use it: Who knows if the Axis player does not have a "move" event card in hand, and will be able to occupy the city unmolested? It also represent the fact, if successful, that the "CB" manoeuvre did not succeed in gaining enough ground in the city to be significant: it thus makes those hexes less vulnerable to "Counterblows" now and then: I find this very realistic. But do know that you cannot use this ploy with surrounded coastal cites (as they have no overland supply paths).


As for the Combat table. I would welcome an opponent trying to do only 1:2 or 5:1 attacks: this means a few 5:1's and a lot of 1:2's, so less Soviet casualties, and a DR at 1-2 means the Axis forces advancing are weak and perhaps vulnerable in my turn. Plus if the Axis gets a "CA" result at 1:2 it gives me good opportunities of counter-attacking when the situation is right. While a 5:1 attack is often an overkill. 3:1 attacks is my table of choice for the Axis.

Do the math: if you can accept a minimum of possible casualties (EX) it's better to do two 3:1 attacks than a 1:2 (somewhat Risky) plus a 5-1 (often an overkill). But it also depends on the situation on the ground.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Germany
Bochum
NRW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
you are absolutely right...

the only thing that really buggs me is that 1:2 is as good or sometimes even better than 1:1 or even 3:2 attacks... representing 3x the firepower of 1:2...

Think about it...

It really makes a lot of sense that a CA is more possible at lower attack strength! (well done!)

but it doesn't make sense (to me, yet) that a weaker attack than a 1:1 can never cause an ex result, but everything above it can... (same is true for 1:2 soviet attacks with only DR but no EX => but this is still OK since the Russian WANTS to EX, but doesn't get to at low attack strength! so "design for effect" is great here! A lucky "DR" is OK here since it makes the game exciting!)

It again makes sense to lose the possibility of losses as soon as you go into overkill at 5:1 or higher! (also well done!)

I, as an aspiring game designer tried to fix the CRTs to my likes (its my game now, MUHAHAHAA) and I found, that a CRT based on d6 rolls is not sufficient for MY PURPOSES. I am playing around with a d10 CRT for NR! and even thought about a 2xD6 CRT, but this seems to be

1. to hard to implement correctly (we geeks all love math but rolling 2 dice can give you statistical head pain while trying to figure out where to put which Combat result for a desired probability)

and even more:
2. the player will have an even harder time deciding what to do, if he has no feel or knowledge of the distribution of results for rolling 2xD6.

the d10 variant, I REALLY LOVE! (d20 would work, too!)

1. you get a finer grained probability grid (duh!) and therefore can make fine changes, if you like!

2. you can "calculate" easier/faster! if you have 2 Results on the d10 CRT, which you like, you got a 20% chance of success! (if you got 1/6 ... that's 16.7%) I like to wrap my head around tenths of Percents better than crummy numbers or "one in six" stuff...

3. still a manageable amount of Results to find your outcome! (d20 would maybe suck here!)

with a d10 CRT you could make the german at 1:2 get:

1 CA

2 CA

3 CA

4 -

5 CB

6 CB

7 EX

8 DR

9 DR

0 DR
2 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Germany
Bochum
NRW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
... and if you decide so, you could get EVEN LESS anoying "-" (no effect) results, which you already tried to minimize!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
montreal
Québec
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GangZda wrote:
... and if you decide so, you could get EVEN LESS anoying "-" (no effect) results, which you already tried to minimize!


Well... I studied the historical large-scale battle results for quite a long time before making the Combat tables, and I am adamant that the way they are designed right now makes for a realistic portrayal of the Situation. Sorry about the 1:2 table, but the Germans Army was that good. I don't think that specific table is BETTER than the other two, you get the same chance of a retreat result, but no "Exchanges", and often you do want to cause casualties, right? Plus the "CA" combat result could end up doing very nasty things to your front line...

BTW I don't find the "-" no effect annoying at all on a design standpoint. Sometimes offensives lead nowhere. I changed the combat tables between the VPG and GMT version NOT to minimize the effect, but to put more variety in the tables (replacing some by a new "CB" result: nothing much is happening on that one, either!).

As for that "twice the firepower" thing it does not work in this game: the values on the counters ARE NOT a 100% straight "bean-counting" combat value thing, but also have tweaks for easier factor/odds computations, plus some other "Design-for-effect" mods. Each unit is not in a vacuum, you also have to COMPARE the strengths of your units vs enemy units to get the big picture (you also have to take into account the terrain modifiers). There IS a reason why most German Infantry Armies are all 4-4, while the Soviets are a variety of 3-4, 4-3 and 5-3s --> this will affect the range of possible results in a one on one fight (odds of 1:2, 1:1 and 3:2). It's still one counter against one, with only 1SP difference, so the small difference here does not warrant more than tow "DR" results on each of these tables. There is also more of those kinds of computations taken into account when more than one unit is involved in the battle on each side. So the compromise is the tables you have in the game.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
montreal
Québec
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
GangZda wrote:

with a d10 CRT you could make the german at 1:2 get:

1 CA

2 CA

3 CA

4 -

5 CB

6 CB

7 EX

8 DR

9 DR

0 DR


Nice table!

I don't like D10 unless you absolutely have to use one. Why? Because I find those dice roll too long a time on the table! Truly!

Plus having a "0" count as a "10" is a real bore. Mind you, I got some "real" D10 at www.chessex.com : they are just great!

I don't like either having an "EX" result at 1:2, since the attacker is theoretically weaker than the defender so should not inflict a lot more casualties: Imagine a 3-4 German infantry attacking a 6-4 Soviet Armor and getting an "EX" result: Both are eliminated! But just one "EX" out of 10 possibilities is perhaps not SO bad...

So you do get more "granularity" in the Odds with a d10 system, it's an advantage for a few of the combat tables.

Tell you what: If you make a complete set of D10 tables and send them to me, I'll check them vs my game design intent (perhaps tweaking them a bit), and if I like them I'll make a complete set of new optional tables with Adobe Illustrator to be posted here for gamers to use.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex
Germany
Bochum
NRW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
licinius wrote:


Tell you what: If you make a complete set of D10 tables and send them to me, I'll check them vs my game design intent (perhaps tweaking them a bit), and if I like them I'll make a complete set of new optional tables with Adobe Illustrator to be posted here for gamers to use.


Challenge Accepted!



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.