Frank Otte
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The Eastern Crows (basic game 115) have the following forced effect: "After Eastern Crows is defeated, shuffle it back into the encounter deck."

So, the circumstances under which that happens are well known and the topic of several threads. What I want to ask is something completely different: what action is exactly expected, when you should "shuffle a card back"?

Since the card is mentioned in singular, we assume, strictly speaking, that the card must be put at a random position into the encounter deck while keeping the relative position of all other encounter cards.

After all, the card text of the crow is not: "Shuffle the encounter deck together with the crows", but "Shuffle the crows into the encounter deck".

This might seem pedantic, but is indeed quite important if you know the top or bottom card(s) of the encounter deck. There are several effects, which provide that. In our case we used the action of Denethor to put a very dangerous card at the bottom of the encounter deck. Later in the game, the crows came and were immediately defeated by Thalin committed to the quest.

So, strictly speaking, the crows should not cause that dangerous card at the bottom mixed at a random position back in the encounter deck again. Instead, it should stay at the bottom, right?

So, my question ist first, are we right in our assumption, and second, if yes, how should you handle that? There is no method known to us, to put the crows back at a random position, without knowing that position, while keeping all other positions.

You could say, ok, make three stacks, the "top" stack with all known top encounter cards, the "middle" stack with all unknown encounter cards and the "bottom" stack with all known bottom encounter cards. But this is no solution, because a random position for the crows include the very top and the very bottom positions.

So how to help?




 
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brian
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I am not sure how you "shuffle" a single card. the act of shuffling requires more than a single card so this shouldn't be just a random placement somewhere into the existing deck.

It seems to me the intent of Crows, not only placing itself back into the deck, is to also shuffle up the things you know are on the top or bottom. Nothing on the card indicates you are to keep all cards in their relative position.

So it seems to me your assumption 1 in incorrect and therefore everything else is a moot point. Just shuffle the deck. I believe the distinction in language is just to clarify the discard pile does not go into the deck at this time, that is all.
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Sebastian Barth
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I am from Germany, too, so I feel free to say that you cannot shuffle a card into a deck without shuffling the whole deck.
So, yeah, basically shuffle the whole deck.

I think it is probably only some language confusion.

edit: ninja
 
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Brent Mair
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I agree with brian, despite his lack of respect for the Dolphins.
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Tony Fanchi
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You're overthinking things here. Just shuffle the Crows and the encounter deck together. If you've modified the order of the encounter deck through card plays, then you're just out of luck.
 
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Richard Morris
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Brian is right. In additiond, if you were to place the crows into the deck, you would know approx. where it was, which cannot be the intent (if it was, it would be explicit, like the cards you put back on top). So you must shuffle the whole lot together.
 
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Frank Otte
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So I have to shuffle the whole deck together with the crows (of cource without the discard pile), hmm. Is this the intent of this card? If yes, it's quite a powerful card, to have the potential to destroy all your knowledge about the encounter deck. Or is it only, because there is simply no other practical way to "hide" a card at unknown position in a deck without shuffling it? If the latter is the case, this is a bad solution in my opinion. But until further notice I will adopt that for my rule summary.

Btw, it wasn't a matter of language. I posted the english original card text. And as far as my english knowledge let me know, the german translation has exact the same meaning as the english original.
 
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brian
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Hermjard wrote:
So I have to shuffle the whole deck together with the crows (of cource without the discard pile), hmm. Is this the intent of this card? If yes, it's quite a powerful card, to have the potential to destroy all your knowledge about the encounter deck. Or is it only, because there is simply no other practical way to "hide" a card at unknown position in a deck without shuffling it? If the latter is the case, this is a bad solution in my opinion. But until further notice I will adopt that for my rule summary.

Btw, it wasn't a matter of language. I posted the english original card text. And as far as my english knowledge let me know, the german translation has exact the same meaning as the english original.

I think it IS the intent of this card. It really isn't that serious of a card otherwise. I threat, 1 Attack, no defense and 1 HP? Shuffling it in the deck is just a minor nuisance. It is a benefit to have this come up instead of some of the more powerful creatures.

Thematically, it seems to fit. In general, I would imagine a flock of crows would confuse you, disorient you. More so in this mythos, they were spies and couriers. So that creature you thought you lost (bottom of the deck), just heard from the crows where you are, and he is on his way....
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Frank Otte
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Hmm, you are right, this indeed makes thematically sense and is plausible! :)
 
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Hermjard wrote:
The Eastern Crows (basic game 115) have the following forced effect: "After Eastern Crows is defeated, shuffle it back into the encounter deck."

So, the circumstances under which that happens are well known and the topic of several threads. What I want to ask is something completely different: what action is exactly expected, when you should "shuffle a card back"?

Since the card is mentioned in singular, we assume, strictly speaking, that the card must be put at a random position into the encounter deck while keeping the relative position of all other encounter cards.

After all, the card text of the crow is not: "Shuffle the encounter deck together with the crows", but "Shuffle the crows into the encounter deck".

This usage is quite common with other words, for example in recipes "mix into" and "blend into" both mean to add an ingredient into a mixture and continue mixing/blending the entire concoction.

Perhaps it is idiomatic but I think the meaning is clear to most English speakers.
 
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