Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
33 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Sergeants Miniatures Game: Day of Days» Forums » Strategy

Subject: SMGs in SMG, Harrison vs. Dreher rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Aw, crap; gonna be sore in the morning...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Harrison seems so much better than Dreher even though the VP difference is only a single point. Perhaps it is their relative weapon differences that perpetuate this theory. Perhaps the Germans are just more difficult to play overall, but obviously the undeniable initiative advantage that Harrison provides (and he is naturally positionally protected by my opponents to preserve this) becomes rather soul crushing game after game. It takes quite a bit of amazing luck for Dreher to wrest the initiative away from Harrison by way of drawing cards during his Look action also followed by a timely Move action that results in a potential close combat fight advantage for Dreher.

Strategically I am struggling to increase Dreher’s effectiveness due to the short range of his weapon and lack of movement speed. He is too slow, so using Move actions to get out of enemy shooting arcs is extremely limited. There is no point in firing with him at long range and becoming spotted since a long range shot draws hits only about 10% with the German hit checks that I have. So I try to keep him unspotted on the slow and steady march closely behind supporting German troops which can assist in Rallying him, one with a second MP40, so the enemy has to consider the penultimate lethality of Dreher at close range and therefore may not safely approach the German squad.

Even so, Dreher is sooooo slow, therefore all you have to do is pin him, which is super easy by the way because of the plethora of white box sighting abilities and Look actions of my paratroopers. Not to mention his ‘must be pinned’ blue box card that is weak and which I assume means he must become pinned for having not even been shot at?! That is one slow overcautious leader!

Depending on the terrain Dreher gets pinned in, he's typically paralyzed on the spot and usually quickly finished off because hide actions are uncommon enough that it takes too long to get him unpinned and safely hidden again whereupon he may continue to creep unspotted into close range.

Even when he does finally make it into close range, his lack of mobility causes him to be overly vulnerable to being charged by move and move again actions and melee typically ensues before the automatic weapons can be at all effective, (my paratroopers have many move and move again actions), so I'm not sure how I can easily change this dynamic.

Dreher’s lack of effectiveness while Harrison remains unpinned on the board has created a pattern of growing losses for Germany and a general sense of inherent imbalance. I’m asking for suggestions please because I am desperate to have the close range hit+ weapons provide a decisive result at least once during play on smaller maps before I start playing the giant map scenarios where I see the MP40s becoming completely ineffective.

I also do not yet understand why Dreher is worth 6VPs since an increased fight ability seems useless without a corresponding ability to move a decent amount of distance along with possessing the initiative as well for melee fighting. I think my Americans might just be too mobile and that may be the most important ability to possess in the DOD scenarios.

Thoughts on tactical formations or positional strategies for successfully getting close and balancing German short range automatic fire against M1 Garands please...
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tinweasel 2
Germany
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I think you are spot-on with your analysis, and what Dreher needs the most is lots of support by lots more men. His main benefit is really the ability to draw cards. I have yet to see his Hit+ abiliy make any difference.

As for tactics, I find that Dreher likes to hang out at the back of Landmarks, with his back in cover if possible for quick re-hiding. He has Short range to any adjacent squares with a Shoot modifier of -1 or less from there, even though the distance is comparatively large. My hit deck seems to be a bit more generous on the hit results for long shots, so I also use Dreher to shoot at long range, making him even slighty better still for the defence of Landmarks. Still, Harrison is just so much better all around.

What the Germans need most (even in just DoD) is some strength of numbers.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Aw, crap; gonna be sore in the morning...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Dupre wrote:
I think you are spot-on with your analysis, and what Dreher needs the most is lots of support by lots more men. His main benefit is really the ability to draw cards.
I wasn't going to post again until more input was received, but you've brought up some good points already. Also, I neglected to mention that this analysis is based solely on the 2nd generation Dreher cards only.

I agree that his Draw cards ability is important, and maybe his Hit+.

Dreher only contributes 1 wound and 1 kill to the damage results. Unfortunately, perhaps even ironically since he draws 3 fight cards, this puts an additional limitation on his potential effectiveness as a lethal fighter.

Dupre wrote:
I have yet to see his Hit+ abiliy make any difference.
Agree and that is the reason for this discussion. I am hoping that someone has discovered something about Dreher's potential Hit+ effectiveness that I have overlooked. Dreher contributes zero hits at short and long range. He only offers the squad 3 Hit+ close range checks and 1 blast hit out of all 7 cards.

This is why I considered it essential to pair him up with at least one other soldier's Hit+ weapon. Naturally a soldier that contributed more potential for Hit+ checks, especially if at short and long range as well, would increase the overall effectiveness of Dreher, but I can't imagine that there even are any soldiers being generated that contain Hit+ checks at long range anyway.

Does anybody have a soldier with long range Hit+ checks from an MP40?

Dupre wrote:
As for tactics, I find that Dreher likes to hang out at the back of Landmarks, with his back in cover if possible for quick re-hiding. He has Short range to any adjacent squares with a Shoot modifier of -1 or less from there, even though the distance is comparatively large.
This is a critical observation that I forgot to mention. Thanks for emphasizing the importance of this. Dreher will not count the Landmark as 2 squares shooting out, but the paratroopers will.

Normally to negate the likely hit check mismatch due to this difference in range distance, the enemy might also move into the Landmark (or at least nearer to it) in order to also pull hit checks at short or close range as well, but that is precisely what the Germans with the MP40s want to have happen since their SMGs become more lethal.

This realization led me to understand that German squads with SMGs, although very slow on the march in order to group around Dreher and rally/hide each other, are actually a terrifying juggernaut you must keep your distance from. Therefore, on a small map, they should have an theoretical advantage as long as they can remain unspotted long enough to get into close range.

2 SMGs in a squad has the potential to decimate opponents at close or short range quickly. I've just never successfully seen it happen as the enemy wisely keeps its distance. Centralizing SMGs on the board and within Landmarks is an excellent positional strategy for maximizing their potential firepower and creating a mismatch hit check range that favors the Germans. The added point you have mentioned above about also hanging out near the edge of the Landmark furthest from the enemy helps protect the SMGs as long as possible against the inevitable move and move again contact assault tactics.

Dupre wrote:
My hit deck seems to be a bit more generous on the hit results for long shots, so I also use Dreher to shoot at long range, making him even slighty better still for the defence of Landmarks.
I am extremely envious of your supporting squad members. I literally have 16 German soldiers and the only one of those that contributes more than 2/7 hits at long range is Maier with 3/7. I got shanked on that stat for certain since the entire deck, no matter who I put in there, basically stinks for long range.

All the games seem to devolve into melee contact at the end as I just don't have long range capabilities with my Germans so far. Since the Americans almost always have the initiative because Harrison is so awesome compared to Dreher, the Germans rarely win. When I try to get close to utilize the SMGs, I get stabbed to death with double move actions before I can swiss cheese the charging forces.

Dupre wrote:
What the Germans need most (even in just DoD) is some strength of numbers.
Agree. Most of my Germans are only worth 2 VPs so it has been easier to field a much larger force with them, but this is why the 'bum melee rush' strategy dominates. I am weary of this conclusion and I want to see the Germans be able to actually utilize their MP40s to devastating effect, so I'm trolling for other people's tactics.

Perhaps 3 SMG toting soldiers is the minimum needed to really make those Hit+ results align. Time to think about buying another German MP40 leader...

I suppose tactically speaking, if there were many Germans worth a couple VPs each, then at least 3 fire teams could be created that each had at least one SMG. Then they could arrange themselves so that it didn't matter if the point fire team got bum rushed, the two trailing and slightly flanking teams could then 'take care of business' SMG style. There just has to be a way to do this somehow. Multiple SMGs should be effective as hell on these smaller maps...devil
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jerry Tresman
United Kingdom
Christchurch
Dorset
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree with Brian on a Dreher led team or squad. A few of us analysed the soldier stats early on and this led to my first extra purchases being leaders. Initially I orderd DoD , German Leader MP40, Assault team and MG42 , for the US , Leader Thompson, Bar team and .30 cal team. At that time there was a different expansion on the horizon. SMG intelligently responded to customer wishes and probably the types of sales made to release a terrain and scenario pack, RtC. Otherwise the MG's use would be limited.

The early gaming experience showed the Germans had the edge in close assault tactics and the US were slightly hamstrung by the lack of shoot cards (gen1) but balanced by better leadership. Buy leaders, once you have 2 teams each side, the extra choice and tactical options the leader packs gives you is phenomenal and evens things up I have an extra 3 leaders per side , I am sure the soldier upgrades and promotions will provide the same. This is an asymmetric game side wise we are comparing highly trained US soldiers both in terms of mission and skills against the German luftlande soldiers , this unit was not the same as its originating assault troops and had just been trained for an aborted air operation so although reasonably trained troops they were being used in a situation the exact opposite of their recent training.

I still need to do a full analysis on my soldiers and I am waiting on some cards and first sergeant rewards before I carry it out.

However the fixed SHOOT ratios of Generation 2 cards will have the additional benefit that then the action decks should cycle through quicker. The more shots the more chance of a hit.
The hit ratio to bullets fired was pretty low in WW2 say 1 in 20,000 or 30,000 small arms shots actually hit, depending on which report you read , the hit rate was higher for MG's better training ,limited ammo compared to fire rate and importance to squad tactics. Modern reports where almost every soldiers has an automatic weapon and SAW's all match or exceed the MG34 the ratio is 250,000 to 1. In WW2 the US suppressed and used their marksmen in fire teams or to be trained as MG gunners, Britain and Germany used the LMG to suppress and had a better trained average rifleman , marksmanship wise partly this was due to the weapons used.

Luckily the hit rate in SMG is a lot higher the one in 20,000 but it still simulates the situation, in a way we are only playing out the significant SHOOTing, the rest had no effect other than to expose the firers.

The game does require a soldier pool and some soldier selection by team and squad the distribution (statistically) requires numbers to work I suspect a 2 teams 2 leaders + DOD of gen 2 soldiers should suffice.

If the base cards had consisted of 1 of each action and the 3 rank specific cards had no restrictions we may have had a more consistent spread. I am sure the design team considering this and maybe that is why each soldier has 4 base cards. It is more challenging with such variety but then I always place myself as a platoon commander picking teams and squads for particular tasks and I can imagine in reality this would have been far more challenging , if I get it wrong its no big deal, if he got it wrong it was letters home and maybe being relieved for cause.

The game certainly simulates small unit operations at a very tactical level and the soldier mix offers a depth of choice that 4-4-7 or similar can't match and with it comes a story and emotional involvement not found in many RPG games.

Plan your mission play your strengths and soldiers you have whats available from Platoon , there's a war on, pair or triple soldiers for their combined effects e.g. good rally and hit+, Look and shoot. Assault teams that have high kill and low cover and plenty of hide cards, so they aren't shot down. Fire teams with low kill and wound but high SHOOT and LOOK. I found the combinations come together slowly and then I find my teams of 2-4 men, sometimes it may be better to play 2 player but with 2 teams each rather than 1 squad, so as to keep the action decks separate. I noticed this in the four player games.

Patience,planning, patience the game plays fast anyway , so take little more time.

1. Plan your mission , make it part of the game set a time limit , say 10-15 mins to plan. Remember a soldiers VP level is there for reason.
2. During play don't rush into action , let the enemy make the mistakes, don't rush into defeat.
3. Think ahead and recognise when to act, then do so decisively. Play the odds of your action deck.
4. Play with what you have your WW2 counterpart had to. Jeff Is working on an infield training plan (generation 2 cards and upgrades)

The game just cries out for a Platoon campaign from D-Day -1 to D-Day + 50.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Billings
United States
Upperco
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I will do this in two posts. The first is a confirmation of what is coming. We are working on several expansions currently. One of them is the the Campaign system.

It seems Jerry got a look at the design notes and product plan. We are constructing a system that allow a campaign between any two players. Each Campaign lets each player use up to a platoon to play in the campaign. Every campaign covers from 1 to 3 days of consecutive combat, played out in 5 to 9 scenarios.

The award for completing campaigns are badges for your soldiers and depending on points and results - medals. Since you will Roster your troops online we can track any medals and promotions for your soldiers. And when you are ready you can order by promoting any private to a leader getting 16 new cards for the soldier. BTW - We tested the manufacturing and fulfillment system with the replacement of the Day of Days Characters.



The highest medals will be awarded for winning local, regional and international tournaments. Combine that with a transfer system and you will be able to assemble a BUTT KICKING Platoon.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Koch
United States
Omaha
Nebraska
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That is really cool!

-Rob
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Billings
United States
Upperco
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
R M Chair General wrote:

I also do not yet understand why Dreher is worth 6VPs since an increased fight ability seems useless without a corresponding ability to move a decent amount of distance along with possessing the initiative as well for melee fighting. I think my Americans might just be too mobile and that may be the most important ability to possess in the DOD scenarios.


Dreher needs a new set of boots... (I am serious!) One of the new equipment cards that Mike has coming out is Fresh Combat Boots. Dreher has been on his feet since the Balkans invasion. He needs new boots. The card allows a Soldier to Walk +1 and to Cover -1 for 1VP.

Give him Field Glasses and he gains Draw 1 Card and Ignore LOOK -1 Modifiers.

Dreher is a poor Leader. His real use is in Road to Carentan, the combination of Sight 22 Cover 2 makes him useful when teamed a radio.

When I was designing the Day of Days game I decided I did not want a good German Leader as the Character. Early testing was showed that the MG 42 on small and the medium maps (in Road to Carentan) Combined with a Harrison Style Dreher was a bit overpowering. If Dreher had as many Hit+ results as Harrison had Hit results, when combined with the MG42 it was murderers row. Dreher was created to be - a bit lacking on purpose.

To Kevin's credit he tried to talk me out of it. For the few people that have bought Day of Days and nothing else they see the lack of Dreher's abilities. For others that are building squads. He is the tired old veteran of too many campaigns, who has survived the Balkans, Russian Front and is recovering in the sunny climes of Normandy - well until the US Airborne fell in on his head.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Billings
United States
Upperco
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
R M Chair General wrote:

I suppose tactically speaking, if there were many Germans worth a couple VPs each, then at least 3 fire teams could be created that each had at least one SMG. Then they could arrange themselves so that it didn't matter if the point fire team got bum rushed, the two trailing and slightly flanking teams could then 'take care of business' SMG style. There just has to be a way to do this somehow. Multiple SMGs should be effective as hell on these smaller maps...devil


The German MP40 was really designed to engage at ranges found in house clearing operations. MG42 and MP40 soldiers teamed as a maneuver group and a fire base (German Tactics 101) make for a devastating combination in SMG.
The Basic Rifle Squad of 2 MP40s, 1 MG42 + the Assistant Gunner, and 6 rifles are quite effective once you organize them as a 2 man MG Team, a 3 Man Maneuver Team and a 5 Man Fire Team. With 1 MP40 in the Maneuver Team and another in the Fire Team.

The Equipment and Tactics Expansion allow the MG42 Gunner and the Assistant Gunner to fire the MG42... (OW!)

The Maneuver Team Organization and the Fire Team Organization include the Organizational cards that are added to the Action Deck of the player. A Team has a panel that the soldiers are added to with the Team Type Card and 2 to 5 Special Action cards that are useable by the Team. The Organization Cost VP to establish and imposes Morale Effects if the team is broken. All before the Spring Rains come.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rex Gator
United States
Apopka
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Fantastic stuff Jeff. Any idea when Equipment and Tactics might be available?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Duke
United States
Wynne
Arkansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Rex, the poetical last sentence of Jeff's post has your answer.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Koch
United States
Omaha
Nebraska
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
... Sometime before the harsh grip of winter has left us then ....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rex Gator
United States
Apopka
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
kduke wrote:
Rex, the poetical last sentence of Jeff's post has your answer.


Reading is fundamental...blush
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Duke
United States
Wynne
Arkansas
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So is writing, but yes, if he'd broken that last line off the paragraph, it would have been much more noticeable.

Long paragraphs tend to make folks' eyes glaze over. While I'm not part of the "bullet point everything" crowd, there are times to use the space more freely.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rex Gator
United States
Apopka
Florida
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I tend to agree with your points on writing style. Part of the reason the original Day of Days rulebook was a struggle for me.

According to Almanac.Com first day of Spring is March 20, 2012 whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Doug Adams
Australia
Oakleigh
Victoria
flag msg tools
badge
A fan of new Knizia games
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rexgator wrote:

According to Almanac.Com first day of Spring is March 20, 2012 whistle


Not in my hemisphere... whistle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Kendall
United States
Lebanon
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Ooh, does "before the spring rains" mean "by Cold Wars"??? I've been squirreling away green stuff for a couple of months now in anticipation of popping up at your booth to buy one of most things available so far.

Another, much more general question, apologies if answered elsewhere: what sort of troops exactly are "Luftlande" infantry? I take it they're not Fallschirmjager, and obviously they're not Panzergrenadiers and certainly not "Ost Battalions" or mere garrison troops.

What historical unit type do the German soldiers represent--and are they generic enough that they can continue to serve if, down the road, Market-Garden, Bulge and beyond-the-Rhine narrative expansions are published?

And . . . will the MP-44 ever make an appearance in S:TMG?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jerry Tresman
United Kingdom
Christchurch
Dorset
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Jeff Billings wrote:
I will do this in two posts. The first is a confirmation of what is coming. We are working on several expansions currently. One of them is the the Campaign system.

It seems Jerry got a look at the design notes and product plan. We are constructing a system that allow a campaign between any two players. Each Campaign lets each player use up to a platoon to play in the campaign. Every campaign covers from 1 to 3 days of consecutive combat, played out in 5 to 9 scenarios.


I haven't personally but my SOE operatives have relayed reports back from your command bunker.
The only new design feature I have seen,I kept quiet about and you just postd pictures of them in your post. I would like to claim credit for the idea of soldiers having dual action cards but you would just accuse me of spying again
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
CWattie
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Barry Kendall wrote:
Another, much more general question, apologies if answered elsewhere: what sort of troops exactly are "Luftlande" infantry? I take it they're not Fallschirmjager, and obviously they're not Panzergrenadiers and certainly not "Ost Battalions" or mere garrison troops.

What historical unit type do the German soldiers represent--and are they generic enough that they can continue to serve if, down the road, Market-Garden, Bulge and beyond-the-Rhine narrative expansions are published?


I had this same question and here is a very high level description. Kevin or Jeff should be able to verify.

From Wikipedia:
"The 91st Infantry Division was created in January 1944, and converted reorganized as the 91st Air Landing Division in the spring to take part in Operation Tanne, an aborted airborne operation in Scandinavia. It was stationed in the Cotentin Peninsula when the Allies invaded in June, and was lost in the fall of Cherbourg. It was partially reconstituted in November, and then used to reconstitute the 344th Infantry Division. Its order of battle for 6 June 1944 included 6th Parachute Regiment attached, with von der Heydte commanding."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Colapietro
United States
Endicott
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jeff Billings wrote:
I will do this in two posts. The first is a confirmation of what is coming. We are working on several expansions currently. One of them is the the Campaign system.

It seems Jerry got a look at the design notes and product plan. We are constructing a system that allow a campaign between any two players. Each Campaign lets each player use up to a platoon to play in the campaign. Every campaign covers from 1 to 3 days of consecutive combat, played out in 5 to 9 scenarios.

The award for completing campaigns are badges for your soldiers and depending on points and results - medals. Since you will Roster your troops online we can track any medals and promotions for your soldiers. And when you are ready you can order by promoting any private to a leader getting 16 new cards for the soldier. BTW - We tested the manufacturing and fulfillment system with the replacement of the Day of Days Characters.



The highest medals will be awarded for winning local, regional and international tournaments. Combine that with a transfer system and you will be able to assemble a BUTT KICKING Platoon.


Well, since the cat is out of the bag on awards, I'll go ahead and post the 'before and after' summary cards for Schaefer. It took some doing to incorporate the dual-actions into the software, but here is the results:

The original stats for Schaefer:



And the stats for the newly-promoted OFw. Schaefer:



Edit - updated image
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Billings
United States
Upperco
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
CWattie wrote:
Barry Kendall wrote:
Another, much more general question, apologies if answered elsewhere: what sort of troops exactly are "Luftlande" infantry? I take it they're not Fallschirmjager, and obviously they're not Panzergrenadiers and certainly not "Ost Battalions" or mere garrison troops.

What historical unit type do the German soldiers represent--and are they generic enough that they can continue to serve if, down the road, Market-Garden, Bulge and beyond-the-Rhine narrative expansions are published?


I had this same question and here is a very high level description. Kevin or Jeff should be able to verify.

From Wikipedia:
"The 91st Infantry Division was created in January 1944, and converted reorganized as the 91st Air Landing Division in the spring to take part in Operation Tanne, an aborted airborne operation in Scandinavia. It was stationed in the Cotentin Peninsula when the Allies invaded in June, and was lost in the fall of Cherbourg. It was partially reconstituted in November, and then used to reconstitute the 344th Infantry Division. Its order of battle for 6 June 1944 included 6th Parachute Regiment attached, with von der Heydte commanding."


I picked these guys because they were organized and trained like a Light Division. The Cadre force used to organize the unit was made up of East Front veterans. That causes the VP/Quality to split between Hard edged tough guys and well trained but inexperienced troops. In Day of Days the 101st was facing them. They were seeing their first combat action in Normandy. All in all a good match up.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Aw, crap; gonna be sore in the morning...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the substantial time invested with all your comments, Jerry.

Starman54 wrote:
The game does require a soldier pool and some soldier selection by team and squad the distribution (statistically) requires numbers to work I suspect a 2 teams 2 leaders + DOD of gen 2 soldiers should suffice.
I have even more than these numbers of soldiers in my pool already but I see the issue being about providing for a better balance in the base game out of the box. And of course, the DOD map is way too small for introducing MG42 teams into play anyway.

Starman54 wrote:
If the base cards had consisted of 1 of each action and the 3 rank specific cards had no restrictions we may have had a more consistent spread. I am sure the design team considering this and maybe that is why each soldier has 4 base cards.
I absolutely agree with this logic and I also think it would have behooved LBG to ensure that this system of balance was in place for the original generation of soldiers provided in the base game for the tiny map it plays out on.

The overall feel of this experience might have been a more 'plain vanilla' cadre of soldiers, but that is easily remedied by buying more soldiers as everyone has suggested everybody do to solve the concerns about balancing the relative effectiveness between the two sides. I just don't think it should've been a requirement to replace or 'fix' the base game leaders.

I guess my point is that buyers would be more willing to make those additional investments and purchases if their very first experiences playing SMG with DOD was a solidly balanced experience without a weak German leader that requires a lot more initial investment to get a satisfactory performance from. Dreher is glaringly weak and it is my opinion that it was probably a mistake to package him into the base game.

Starman54 wrote:
Plan your mission play your strengths and soldiers you have whats available from Platoon , there's a war on, pair or triple soldiers for their combined effects e.g. good rally and hit+, Look and shoot. Assault teams that have high kill and low cover and plenty of hide cards, so they aren't shot down. Fire teams with low kill and wound but high SHOOT and LOOK. I found the combinations come together slowly and then I find my teams of 2-4 men, sometimes it may be better to play 2 player but with 2 teams each rather than 1 squad, so as to keep the action decks separate. I noticed this in the four player games.
Brilliant. This is good tactical advice but that which also requires a lot of additional purchasing power. I guess I didn't explicitly state it, but I was trying to mostly comment on the generic type of experience that someone who has only purchased DOD and maybe an extra leader or rifle team per side is going to have to deal with when playing with Harrison vs. Dreher.

However, I especially like the advice you've offered for playing with four players, with one player taking on the assault team duties and the other player utilizing the fire team and the necessity to recognize that those team decks will be comprised of cards that exclusively aid their own team, having intentionally been built to do so.

Naturally, all those high kill cards are going to destroy your fire team, but the assault team is going to get their hands a bit dirtier and more personal with the melee tactics involved. You've got to keep them separated and that becomes an ideal situation for multiple team play with specialized tactical units.

Starman54 wrote:
During play don't rush into action , let the enemy make the mistakes, don't rush into defeat.
True enough, but not always a luxury with the orders involved. Sometimes it is necessary to rush the enemy to prevent them from gaining 23VPs on exit patrol orders when all you gain by ignoring them is 8VPs for holding the marsh.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Aw, crap; gonna be sore in the morning...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jeff Billings wrote:
We are constructing a system that allow a campaign between any two players. Each Campaign lets each player use up to a platoon to play in the campaign. Every campaign covers from 1 to 3 days of consecutive combat, played out in 5 to 9 scenarios. The award for completing campaigns are badges for your soldiers and depending on points and results - medals. Since you will Roster your troops online we can track any medals and promotions for your soldiers. And when you are ready you can order by promoting any private to a leader getting 16 new cards for the soldier.
This is exciting, Jeff! By offering this progressive experience, you are providing an opportunity for players to become emotionally attached to their soldiers during games because the decisions that they make for their men will naturally carry far greater weight.

The entire experience of SMG will become elevated and tense (in a very good way). The strategy threads are about to explode for this system.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Aw, crap; gonna be sore in the morning...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jeff, I appreciate your replies in this thread very much, but now it's time to lob a grenade or two, so please get your head down. Incoming!

Jeff Billings wrote:
R M Chair General wrote:

I also do not yet understand why Dreher is worth 6VPs since an increased fight ability seems useless without a corresponding ability to move a decent amount of distance along with possessing the initiative as well for melee fighting. I think my Americans might just be too mobile and that may be the most important ability to possess in the DOD scenarios.


Dreher needs a new set of boots...
Well, it is the base game here. I think he should've had the boots to begin with. For want of a nail the shoe was lost, for want of a shoe the horse was lost, for want of a horse, etc., skip a few hundred years all the way to the Fatherland. zombie

Jeff Billings wrote:
Dreher is a poor Leader. His real use is in Road to Carentan, the combination of Sight 22 Cover 2 makes him useful when teamed a radio.

When I was designing the Day of Days game I decided I did not want a good German Leader as the Character.
Hmmm... thumbsdown

Jeff Billings wrote:
Early testing was showed that the MG 42 on small and the medium maps (in Road to Carentan) Combined with a Harrison Style Dreher was a bit overpowering. If Dreher had as many Hit+ results as Harrison had Hit results, when combined with the MG42 it was murderers row. Dreher was created to be - a bit lacking on purpose.
Ok, but how is this any different when everyone is buying alternative leaders to use because Dreher is insufficient? MG42s are still going to dominate the battlefield at this scale, as they should anyway, regardless of the leadership present, (until you add your armor to blast away at them, or infantry artillery, rifle grenades, etc.) MG42s are better than the allied LMGs.

The point is that players are simply going to swap out Dreher for a better German leader instead and the problem as you explain it here is still present!

Jeff Billings wrote:
To Kevin's credit he tried to talk me out of it. For the few people that have bought Day of Days and nothing else they see the lack of Dreher's abilities. For others that are building squads. He is the tired old veteran of too many campaigns, who has survived the Balkans, Russian Front and is recovering in the sunny climes of Normandy - well until the US Airborne fell in on his head.
Perhaps you should consider attaching a bit more weight to what Kevin suggests going forward. I'm not trying to be a wiseguy here, Jeff, so I hope I'm not offending you.

It's just disappointing to not have a German leader that can go toe to toe with Harrison from the beginning and your explanation does not convince me that it was necessary to limit Dreher's ability since it doesn't solve the problem of whether or not the MG42s are going to be overpowered in the scenarios to come, that is unless you plan on limiting every single MP40 toting German leader's hit checks in the future also.

I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with waiting until I can augment Dreher with equipment in order to make him more useful on his own and hope that this doesn't cost too much more money to acquire just to fix him up the way he should've been to begin with. (Why didn't he just acquire the new boots on one of his many sojourns across the continent?) shake

Getting back to just DOD, I believe the marketing reality that Kevin appreciates is that DOD is all that the first time player is likely to get introduced to, unless he is at some huge convention or something, so the base game has to stand firmly on its own ground with characters that can properly lead a squad to a 'balanced' conclusion, asymmetrically or otherwise, to avoid similar stabbing conclusions each time.

I believe Kevin also realizes that you only get one chance at a first impression and that the first impression greatly impacts potential sales. This is also why it is both very important and significant that you are republishing the rules before all the bells and whistles equipment, etc. expansions are released.

Well, to end all this on a positive note before it's too late, I think that you should be commended for focusing on the rules to be republished in advance of the expansion projects, choosing to postpone sales for the sake of clarifying the products already being used, for printing them and sending them out at great expense to all the loyal SMGers that have supported you and that will continue to do so in the near future, a year that looks extremely bright for SMG.
thumbsupthumbsupthumbsup
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Billings
United States
Upperco
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
BOOM! ... surprise ...

No problem.

Day of Days is the most compact introduction to SMG that I could fashion. I had certain criteria that had to be met.

1) $100 Retail price.
2) A substantial representation of the game play had to be in the box and it had to support the addition of the Soldiers.
3) It had to be a foundation that we could build on.

It was #2 that meant that I had to include at least one Hit+ weapon in Day of Days. The map was suited for Close Contact and Fight. That meant a US M1A1 Thompson or a German MP40 needed to be the Hit+ Weapon. I decided that Dreher was the best choice for demonstrating Hit+. Again #2 and #3 meant that I had to consider the addition of Soldiers. For at least a month or so the MG42 was going to appear on the Day of Days maps.

Maybe there was a better solution to the whole problem. I was and am satisfied with the Character Dreher. He is a grizzled veteran of many campaigns. You carry him a bit. But he fits my understanding of the soldiers of the Luftlande and he demonstrates the strength and weakness of the tactical doctrine used in Anti-Airborne operations by the German Army in World War 2. Attack immediately even with inferior forces and keep the Airborne Assault from consolidating while you wait for reinforcements.

The Germans must engage and do it with an inferior force. The play dynamics are good for Day of Days. If you SHOOT the leader as soon as possible, the Germans gain the edge. Dreher must be Spotted by a LOOK action in almost all cases. Harrison will shoot, be Spotted and then come under fire. The scenarios in Day of Days are usually settled in 6 turns by new players. However the Germans gain the advantage with time. If Harrison goes down in an exchange of fire in the first 6 turns the Germans have a distinct advantage. The Germans must "Box" and the Americans have to "Slug". They are not the same guys in different uniforms. Dreher is not a slugger he is an old tired boxer.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian
United States
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
Aw, crap; gonna be sore in the morning...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Jeff Billings wrote:
BOOM! ... surprise ...

No problem.
Thanks, Jeff for being understanding and receptive. modest

Jeff Billings wrote:
I decided that Dreher was the best choice for demonstrating Hit+.
Why Dreher and not someone else with normal movement? Is it just because Dreher is the leader?

Jeff Billings wrote:
For at least a month or so the MG42 was going to appear on the Day of Days maps.
surprise Based on your "murderers row" comment earlier, I am already suspicious that the MG42 is going to feel overpowered during play, even on the larger maps, when there are also a couple MP40s hanging around guarding them. (Dreher would be good for this duty since he is too old and slow to be of any better use elsewhere.)

Jeff Billings wrote:
Maybe there was a better solution to the whole problem. I was and am satisfied with the Character Dreher. He is a grizzled veteran of many campaigns. You carry him a bit. But he fits my understanding of the soldiers of the Luftlande and he demonstrates the strength and weakness of the tactical doctrine used in Anti-Airborne operations by the German Army in World War 2. Attack immediately even with inferior forces and keep the Airborne Assault from consolidating while you wait for reinforcements.
Ok, well I think this is the best explanation for Dreher yet and also an accurate assessment of the situation that the Germans faced. Much better than the old boots reason anyway, which seems fairly ridiculous to me that he couldn't simply acquire a pair of those earlier from somewhere and gain that additional 1" of critical movement from the very beginning of DOD. Dreher sure seems too sentimental about those old worthless boots slowing him down right now.

As you said earlier, the MP40 SMG was really for house clearing, but when a soldier moves as slowly as Dreher does, he is never going to make it to the house. And this is without any MGs in play!

What compensates for the lack of mobility and consequential lack of offensive usefulness of the SMG in DOD because it has been issued to the slowest soldier in the entire game? (Has anyone ever received another soldier with a 3" movement? I have a few soldiers that move 4", but Dreher is the only gimp legged one.) Tactically then, Dreher's SMG accomplishes one thing, keeping the enemy at a distance only as long as they fail to play a flanking move and move again action with the initiative to boot, (pun intended I guess).

Jeff Billings wrote:
The Germans must engage and do it with an inferior force. The play dynamics are good for Day of Days. If you SHOOT the leader as soon as possible, the Germans gain the edge. Dreher must be Spotted by a LOOK action in almost all cases. Harrison will shoot, be Spotted and then come under fire.
Except Harrison does not have to shoot, (and probably shouldn't unless he can do so twice), and with his cover of 1 he hides easier than anyone else even if he does shoot. Besides, he preserves the initiative for the other guys in his squad.

Meanwhile, Dreher contributes a big fat zero short or long range hits to the German cause even while Harrison does remain briefly spotted. We are back to not being able to get close enough fast enough for the German SMG to matter.

Jeff Billings wrote:
However the Germans gain the advantage with time. If Harrison goes down in an exchange of fire in the first 6 turns the Germans have a distinct advantage.
I haven't seen this German advantage play out at all yet, which is at least partially why I posted this thread. The Americans are all out kicking German keister repeatedly ad nauseum and they don't even have the grease gun.

Most of my games are 8-9 turns long on average and I've seen Harrison go down in turn 1 twice where the Americans still didn't have any trouble maintaining a decisive edge throughout, even with only 3 cards per turn and no initiative for the rest of the game. Dreher is that much of a drag on the unit. You have to babysit him since he is worth too many VPs to abandon him to his slow plodding fate.

My Germans are terrible at long range, wretched in fact, and Dreher is the primary culprit. My Americans are extremely mobile with multiple soldier movements of 10" and 15" per turn. Pinning the Germans at long range and then easily out flanking them for lopsided combat contact has become formulaic.

Jeff Billings wrote:
The Germans must "Box" and the Americans have to "Slug". They are not the same guys in different uniforms. Dreher is not a slugger he is an old tired boxer.
I honestly really appreciate that they aren't the same guys with identical weapons and tactics, but I'm sorry, I do not understand the boxing metaphor.

A major difference between the DOD characters is that the Germans are the only ones that received an SMG, so ideally they should try to create a situation that capitalizes on this difference and the effective use of short to close range that the SMG offers. Very tough to do when they move so slowly.

It seems that I may be expecting far too much of old Dreher. He just doesn't have the right stuff for offensive tactics at all. He is entirely too slow and must be babysat and delegated to defensive tactics only. All because of an obsessed, pathological affinity for old stinky boots.

I'm thinking now that the only opportunity for offense with Dreher is by remaining unspotted and closing the distance through cover by using soldiers with low cover stats, high hide actions and high move and move again actions along with another SMG or two for the added Hit+ checks. Otherwise, that old dog just won't hunt, eh? This embedded play imbalance obviously bothers me. I can't easily accept that on a map as tiny as DOD, the SMG seems fairly worthless tactically. zombie
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.