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Subject: Why is there no GTA Boardgame??? rss

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Manuel Ingeland
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...apart from the MadTV one, of course.

I see a modular board, many different scenarios (jobs) and levels, cars, police, dice, cards, mini games in the game...many things to do, even when losing a turn.....



------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: ...so that was the beginning of this thread.
Now there's a



TEMPORARY UPDATE OF THIS FIRST POST

As suggested by
Sturv Tafvherd
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here Re: Why is there no GTA Boardgame??? I'll add the most recent part of this WIP to this initial post.

It's about a GTA add-on for Zombicide (without zombies) that I'm working on right now.


I'll delete this mini project from this post as soon as necessary.




GTA: Z-CITY



You might be wondering why I decided to create a GTA add-on for Zombicide. In my corresponding thread Giving the zeds a break - a GTA variant? over on the Zombicide gamepage people say that Zombicide doesn't provide the right scale for a GTA boardgame.

I'm not saying they're wrong.

BUT

Here are my reasons and justifications for this little side-project:

- I want to capture the feel of GTA mainly on the basis of encounters, street corner scenes and backyard stabbings. Think GTA by foot.

- Personally, I'm not a fan of car racing board games (Yay! A 6! I can feel the wind in my face!), especially not with mechanisms based on lame dice rolling.
I don't want to spend the playing time just watching my car driving from one district to another. Police Precinct also has a good scale I think.

- I love Zombicide, but I'm not a zombie fan by nature. As the new expansions are now live on Kickstarter..and as it looks like Zombicide is going to stay in my life for a while, I'd like to have a nice little filler without the hordes.

- Zombicide has a nice, simple system based on actions AND d6 when inevitable. Creating a small addon for Zombicide (just a few tokens and cards) is a good thing to start with.

- In terms of artwork, style AND most of the components, Zombicide provides exactly what I need.

- this GTA thread was close to dying. No posts, no ideas.
It felt like actually trying to design a GTA boardgame would be way too much work..with a very low probability of success...needless to say.

- I'm not the kind of abstract thinker guy who scribbles some text on paper snippets and doesn't need more for playtesting. That could work in a group, but doesn't all alone. My eyes need candy!

- once this little project has gotten some shape, the standalone GTA board game perhaps isn't as far away as it feels




INDEX

1. COMPONENTS
1.1 The custom dice
1.2 The cards
1.2.1 the event deck
1.3 the skills/experience tracker
1.4 the search tokens
1.5 other tokens
1.6 the item/weapon cards
1.7 the scenario cards

2. Gameplay
2.1 SETUP
2.2 THE GAME
2.2.1 pedestrians
2.2.2 the LEADFOOT rule
2.2.3 Fighting
2.2.4 Money
2.2.5 external locations
2.2.6 winning the game

3. further notes

4. EDITS




1. COMPONENTS:

- the Zombicide tiles
- the Zombicide cars
- the Zombicide items & weapons deck
- the Zombicide player boards (with a new cardboard skill bar)
- the Zombicide tokens
- (the Zombicide hero miniatures)

- new boss-, job-, cop-, money- and civilian tokens
- 3 family decks (5 cards each)
- event deck
- out of town-locations (8-12, also on mini cards)
- [2 custom dice (redundant if sticking with the event cards described below)]



1.1 The custom dice:

dA: 3x crosshair (accomplished), 2x mobster (fight [to be added: against 1/2]), 1x police (failed, run! -> you may try again in your next turn)




When you roll the flashing blue light, you get a police search token (same image). The search level increases by one until you e.g. get changed at the slopshop.


dB: 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4 (for moving police cars)



1.2 The cards:


Example of a family/boss card:





A preliminary breakdown in progress (in desperate need of feedback):

T (transport)
B (beating)
K (kidnapping)
A (assassination)

C (cash)
xp (experience point)


KIND OF JOB (collecting sets: bonus xp) - LOCATION - REWARD


boss1

RED: A F 2C4xp
ORANGE: K D->B 6xp
YELLOW: B C 2xp
BLUE: T A->E 2C4xp

RED: A C 1C5xp
ORANGE: T G->D 4xp
YELLOW: T B->F 2C
BLUE: B A 3xp

...to be continued...




Example of an event card:


The initial sketch:


[This would be another possibility for the event cards:
You wouldn't need any custom dice. Source of inspiration: http://dicecards.com/






The most recent layout:





On this event card, you encounter a bad guy with his dog (2) OUTDOORS, whereas you'd just meet a friend INDOORS.

Pedestrians are crossing.

No new pedestrians are entering the board, as gunmen are around.

The police cars move according to the number and direction of the current search level.

[the arrows have to be redrawn: They will split into e.g. a red (= priority) arrow pointing to the right and a black arrow bending up- or downwards. Black arrows are used if the red ones don't work.]

If you are about to finish a job, you will have to fight against 1 gunman.


Update (13.03.2013): Version 2 of the event card draft:





[note: the arrows have to be larger. The flavor picture is related to the location event on the right]



- 1.2.1 the event deck:

There are 3 event categories on each card:
- pedestrians (crossing/moving)
- police (+ movement/direction)
- random events (gangs & stuff, indoors & outdoors)

- as you shouldn't be able to plan actions after events, you draw a new event card each time you need to resolve an event:

- SAMPLE TURN:

- general movement phase:

- draw an event card and look at the lower right to see how far the police cars are moving (basic move)
- move the pedestrians according to the level

- your turn:

- you decide to use a car and visit the boss for a new job. You successfully steal the car, draw an event card and look at the lower left. No pedestrians are crossing. Fine.

- You use 2 actions to drive and spend two bonus actions on entering the building and searching the first room. draw an event card and look at the upper right corner. Indoor event: 2 thugs!

- You successfully fight the guys (no extra action needed, as you are getting attacked; gain 2 xp) and end your turn.


- card breakdown (preliminary, of course):

[as there aren't any higher numbers to work with, a set of 6 different event cards would serve the dA-implementation. There could be 2/3/4 copies of this set in the event stack. That means 12, 18 or 24 cards in the event deck]


INDOORS: 0 0 1 1 2 3
OUTDOORS: 0 1 1 2 2 3
pedestrians: y y y n n n
jobs/success: a a a f1 f2 p
(accomplished/fight for it(1/2 enemy(ies)/search token)
MOVEMENT: BLUE: 0 1 1 2 2 2
(default)YELLOW: 1 1 2 2 2 3
ORANGE: 1 2 2 2 3 3
RED: 2 3 3 3 4 4



- 1.3 the skills/experience tracker:


This would be a skill bar you'd place onto your Zombicide survivor card:






General effects of the different skill/experience levels:

BLUE: start with a machete / police: dB / +1 pedestrian at each street ending

YELLOW: use cars! / police: dB + 1 / +1 pedestrian at each street ending

ORANGE: use motorbikes OR +1 action / police: dB + 1 / +2 pedestrians at each street ending (+1 police car on some event cards)

RED: drive-by shooting OR +1 action / police: dB + 2 / +3 pedestrians at each street ending (+2 police cars on some event cards)



- 1.4 the search tokens:

- Whenever you reach a new level on the track, you add a police search token to the POOL. Some events force you to do so, too.

[now this is one of the weak spots right now]

What are the cops doing?

Turn around and move towards you until you've managed to get rid of the search tokens? (similar to the noise rule of Zombicide)

Punish you harder?

Move faster?

Brainstorm:

- 1 "star": police cars +1 movement

- 2 "stars": police cars +2 movement

- 3 "stars": police cars move towards you (and after the operation back into their initial directions)

- 4 "stars": after moving, police cars spread d6 officers who start running after you!

- 5 "stars": they got you! Lose all equipment and your highest skill immediately. No chase, as they use a helicopter.



- You can get rid of search tokens by

- changing your clothes

- spending 1 action on waiting in your hideout (as soon as unlocked -> skill option? You could use it to hide yourself or your money/ equipment)

- getting 2 corners away from the crime scene: flip the victim's token to its dead side and leave it there until you reach the first zone after 2 corners into any direction (outch...that doesn't feel English!).
Put 1 search token aside and remove the corpse from play.

- bribing the cops:
- 1. Pay $ 2 and remove 1 search token from the common pool.
- 2. BETRAYAL! Spend 1 action and sell out another player: remove 1 search token from the common pool and give it to the player. The cops are now moving towards HIM in the first place.



- 1.5 other tokens:

- 3 family tokens
- 3 x 3 location tokens (job locations: the docks, the butcher, ...)
- 1 hideout per player
- clothes shop
- bookmaker's
- Tony's (items, weapons, hot tips (additional dice for bets))
- 10-20 cops
- 10-20 pedestrians
- player tokens/pawns
- money tokens



1.6 the item/weapon cards:

The plan is to use the original Zombicide item/weapon cards, plus custom cards (plenty have been designed already).

- does it work to leave them unmodified with less enemies than usual (zombie hordes)?

- would it be an idea to unlock firearms on the yellow level, so you have to start with knives and baseball bats? Theme?
- should this be indicated on the skill bar or rather on single scenario cards as a special rule?

- a new item could be a GPS receiver that gives you + 1 action



- 1.7 the scenario cards:

- a 1 page-rulesheet plus 5+ scenario cards should do the job concerning the rules.
- the scenarios could be printed on mini cards as well (for the sake of handling/storage)
- on their backs, there is a list with tokens and special rules which are to be used for this scenario.


- some ideas for scenarios:

THE RAT: LILYHAMMER (1-4 players, competitive)
collect x xp OR complete all 5 jobs for one onf the 3 capos.
That's enough information to make a good deal with the FBI.
Go see them.


LEGENDARY (1-4 players, cooperative)
The capo sends some of his men to rob the central bank.
Keep the cops busy in the meantime.
[collect 5 search tokens and survive 3 rounds]


HITMAN (1-4 players, competitive)
complete 3 assassination jobs


COLOMBIA! (1-4 players, cooperative)
Make some money and go on a business trip! We need some powder!
$10 + -> airport (external location)


- a variant: lay out all scenario cards:
you win as soon as you fulfil the winning conditions of a scenario

- the cooperative goal is COLOMBIA! You can betray the other players by sectretly playing LILYHAMMER



2. Gameplay:

2.1 SETUP:

- the board is set up according to the description of each scenario sheet.

- the boss- and location tokens listed on the scenario sheet are placed face down and randomly onto the buildings. Then they are turned face up.

- the family decks are placed face down next to the game board, as well as the event deck and the weapon deck.

- place your miniature/token onto your starting location (given in the scenario rules)


2.2 THE GAME:

- you have 3 basic actions

- moving from one zone to another by foot costs 1 action
- moving two zones by car costs 1 action
- searching for swag costs 1 action (you can also buy weapons at the gunshop)
- meeting a boss for a new job costs 1 action
- executing a job costs 1 action
- killing someone costs 1 action
- buying new clothes to lower your search level costs 1 action

- whenever you leave a building and enter the streets, you have to move all pedestrians 1 zone towards the other side of the board. You also have to draw a new even card (roll the dB) and move the cars accordingly
- this procedure is to be performed between the rounds of the game as well.


- 2.2.1 pedestrians:


- at the beginning of each turn, new pedestrians will enter the board from the street ends and move on the RIGHT sidewalk until they leave the board again.
- your experience level determines their number.
- very annoying, because they witness your crimes.
- some event cards make them drug dealers or bad guys attacking you.
- sometimes, it's useful to kill them...and sometimes crime scenes scare them off: whenever there is a conflict on the streets, people are getting scared and run away! Remove them from the game.

- you can always try to rob them: roll a d6:

1: outch! You messed with the wrong guy! He grabs your gun and runs away! 1 search token.
2: person screams and runs away: no money, 1 search token.
3: person is broke. The old mobile isn't worth a cent.
4: keep the wallet! 1 money token
5: keep the wallet! 1 money token
6: Good job! You should make it a profession! 1 money token + 1 xp

[are pedestrians too annoying in terms of what I want to avoid: endless moving of minis/pawns? I somehow can't think of GTA without pedestrians]

- alternatively, pedestrians could be added only once in a while, via events...? They are another weak spot here. I feel that I need them, but they shouldn't disturb the flow. Any ideas?


- 2.2.2 the LEADFOOT rule:

if you at the yellow level decide to use a car (you don't have the knowledge earlier), you decide on how many actions (= zones) you want to drive it. THEN you draw an event card. Most likely, some pedestrians will decide to cross the streets in front of you. They will be run over and your search level will increase by 1.

- alternatively, you could choose between spending one action on moving slowly, but safely 2 zones ahead AND spending one action on driving as fast as you can and thereby moving 4 zones ahead. In the latter case you'd face the risk by drawing an event card. Did you run over someone? Did you hit the wall?


- motorbikes may be used at the orange level. Now you can cross police blocks!



2.2.3 Fighting:


Losing a fight:

- if you lose a fight against another mobster, you better run! You lose one item of your choice and move to the next zone.

- if you lose a fight against the cops/ are caught by the cops things are even worse: you lose your entire equipment and your highest skill (PERMANENTLY)

- it would be nice to execute a mad police operation/ car chase at a high search level. The cops would roll the dB and draw an event card afterwards. They would crash into parked cars and pedestrians. The zones would be clean afterwards.

POLICE CARS bend into the directions given on the event cards. They never leave the board, as long as they don't crash or the officers get killed.
The cops IGNORE the directions on the event cards and MOVE TOWARDS THE CLOSEST PLAYER as soon as he has 3 or more search tokens!
The directions on the event cards apply again if the player(s) manage to reduce the amount of tokens.



- 2.2.4 Money:

- you will receive money as a reward for accomplished jobs
- you can always try to rob pedestrians
- you can go and see the BOOKMAKER'S! Bet on horses!

1: you lost your stake
2: you keep your stake
3: you keep your stake
4: your stake doubles
5: your stake doubles
6: wow! Stake x 3!



- 2.2.5 external locations:


- as another effect of levelling or/ and completing certain jobs, external locations could be unlocked.

These would work quite similar to the other worlds in Arkham Horror. Special location tiles (Chicago Downtown/ Harbor/ Suburbs/ airport/ ...) would be put next to the street ends. They would have certain distances to the home quarter and add to the GTA scale.

You'd be sent there for negotiations with other families and organizations. You could also go on vacation and recover from high search levels.

- as the distance between the external locations and your district would vary, there would be different requirements for the travel:

- discard all other current jobs
- - actions, - $


- 2.2.6 winning the game:

- depends on the scenario:
- running out of boss cards
- a certain amount of xp
- completing a difficult job

..could be reasons to either end the game or start the zombie madness.



- 3. further notes:

- A nice feature would be to tell the zombie story ("how it all began")...to have mobsters as characters, to play the GTA mode and at, say, the red level, slowly mix ZOMBICIDE cards into the event deck (along with a loss of equipment and skills, due to shock and confusion). Or to have - boom! Zombies!!!



- Check out the Zombicide scenario editor on Guillotone Games' website!



REQUEST:

I want to get a set of cards and tokens done, as soon as possible.
As explained above and much against everyone's general advice, I somehow can't force myself to playtest with text snippets only.
The plan is to design a flavored set for testing.
It shouldn't be in a very rough state anymore, because then it maybe wouldn't even be necessary to change it all again

I'm looking for someone who'd help me with balancing issues, numbers and tweaks.
To express my gratitude, I'd send him a professionally printed (Artscow) set in the end!


...and here the inevitable phrase: due to copyright issues, I won't publish the results of this project.


I'll update this post regularly.




- 4. EDITS:

- 12.03.2013: clarity/ layout/ project description/ preliminary boss- & event card breakdown/ item/weapon cards/ scenario cards/ pedestrians/ request

- 13.03.2013: version 2 of the event card draft

- 14.03.2013: 1.5: other tokens, 2.2.4: money, more info about scenario cards, money, the cops
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Derek
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Outside of IP issues?
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Patrick Leder
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Nothing could be as awesome as the Mad TV version.
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Drew Dallas
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clip of this mad tv skit online anywhere?
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William Towns
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I'm a HUGE fan of Grand Theft Auto, but I cannot see GTA working in a boardgame context. For starters, boardgames tend to have focused objectives. GTA almost by definition has no focus. You would have to shave 80% of what's in the videogame to fit it in a boardgame of reasonable length and depth unless you want some crazy Advanced Squad Leader-type system. Even if you could do that, how do you model the police? Either players have to be police or the game would have to contain its own police mechanic. I don't think either solution is compelling. That said, I'll end up spending the next couple days brainstorming this idea. devil
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Manuel Ingeland
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That's what I mean...trying to transfer this anarchic feeling from the pc game onto the board...why not?

I really don't get why nobody's giving it a try.
There has to be a police mechanism for sure...

Perhaps something like this http://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/6420/underdogs
...and kind of a heat meter for each player who can't use his turn and decides to just go amok.

All the players want to climb the ladder....need a suit, first...have to beat up some guys and so on...

Just like you choose a scenario (e.g. Claustrophobia), you choose a level to work on... You can't start Level2 without being done with Level1, of course. Now there could be different ways to go...go for money, respect, unscrupulousness...You don't need to do big jobs (at least not at the lower levels)...small jobs & deeds...maybe even several per turn...use every kind of known game material!

The only danger I see for now is having this terrible pen & paper element with the character sheet...I say no, no, no!

The clip is on the tube..
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Michael Weber
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I know, it is NOT GTA, but likely as close as it has gotten to GTA so far:


Road Kill Rally

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Michael Weber
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civilization from FFG is a good adaption of the boardgame, while the one from Eagle games was terrible
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Manuel Ingeland
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I've seen Road Kill Rally, yes..


Can't be that hard to get this certain randomness onto the board!




Just like "dig your nose": 3 a's per action

"beat up a pimp (perhaps better not an old lady): 12 b's per action

......

all the different achievements then have to be changed into money....and then you get your suit/car/whatever the Don wants you to get.
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Aaron Morgan
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ptdnet wrote:
Video games seem to make terrible board games. See World of Warcraft, StarCraft, WarCraft...

Of course, it might just be a Blizzard thing but the trend is clear to me.


I'll give you Warcraft, but Starcraft is pretty highly-ranked here, and the first WoW boardgame has a pretty decent rating, as well. Both are fun games and do a pretty decent job of emulating the video games they are based on.

Not to mention newer video game-based BGs like Gears of War, the above mentioned Civilization, Age of Empires III, and The Resident Evil deckbuilding game. All high sixes or above, which is a solid score for this site.
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Manuel Ingeland
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so boardgame adaptations of videogames in general is the issue now?
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Abdul Rahman Ibrahim
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Best way to give focus to this sort of games is by points. Do anything, be a crook, be a samaritan, sabotage or help other players or whatever be it via event cards or by the board, but certain actions give points while others subtract it (maybe even a good/evil track, just go as far as you can in one direction). Put in a turn limit and we might be going somewhere with this.
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Derry Salewski
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The problem is that GTA is already incredibly gray-area about what one should encourage people to simulate. You have to be 17 to buy the video game. So, German companies are out, so is probably the German market and the German awards and such. This is going to turn off a lot of the bigger companies elsewhere and such.

So, now no one is going to make it who has enough money to purchase the license.

So now the tagline for the game is 'kill cops, run over pedestrians and rip off fellow mobsters on our way to the top of the bottom of the city!' Rather than just 'GTA, the boardgame!'

Name a company who wants to put that out.

But sure, it wouldn't be hard to re-theme Middle Earth Quest to GTA. One of those properties is just going to sell a lot better!

Edit: I also think the Boardgame/videogame conversion thing might be in effect. Would you want to play it as a boardgame? Vice City is the only one I ever had, and I thought it was sweet, but I don't know that it would work BETTER as a board game. Just like civilization and Star Craft don't (even if people like the Boardgames!)
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Manuel Ingeland
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Well, I personally don't care about the name, the sales (could be 250 copies via Kickstarter) and the direct comparison to the video game.

I just think it's soooo tempting to try to catch that feel...in a board game.

Let's take Vice City...it would be pretty lame to just take the original map of the video game and some of the level goals.

The board should be modular, the replayability as well as the interaction should be high, people should want to play a few turns just to relax...there shouldn't be as much structure as with other games....one guy uses dice right now...another one has to collect some cards....BUT there has to be a red line, one goal that brings them together again.

This "new" game experience of a hangout pool (maybe way more rounds per level than necessary, so you find time to just cruise around and enjoy the feeling ) would be much more important to me than that you can stabb old women.
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Asili Eiliaz
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GTA is already a single-player role-playing game with a limited set of scenarios. The emphasis on driving is just the mechanic, and the sandbox provides a fertile field for making up games to play within the scenario. To further abstract it would be pointless because it's the expansive nature of the scenario that provides the game's appeal.

All that being said, I've never had more fun with a video game than tankfishing in GTAVC.
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Matt Green
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almond55 wrote:
Do anything, be a crook, be a samaritan, sabotage or help other players or whatever be it via event cards or by the board, but certain actions give points while others subtract it (maybe even a good/evil track, just go as far as you can in one direction). Put in a turn limit and we might be going somewhere with this.


The Phantom League is a board game heavily inspired by the video game Elite. It's a sandbox free-roaming game like GTA where players can take 'light side' or 'dark side' actions to get a reputation as an interstellar trader. Whilst there is no end to the game you keep becoming more and more famous or infamous. I would hope that the best characters would eventually get old and retire to write their memoirs, effectively ending the game and winning by reaching a grand old age.

This list gives a few more examples- feel free to add more. I think that whatever the answer to a GTA game is, parts of the solution lie in game like those listed. They are some of my favourites and, to quote a recent thread here, I'd have the design of an open-world game on my bucket list I think.
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Derek
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I guess another question to ask yourself (or the would be publisher would ask), if there are so many video game iterations of GTA out there(you can pick up San Andreas for 5 bucks) who would want to play the board game version?

People will pick up the little minis and say, well... this is interesting, but I could be beating up nuns and pimps and skydiving and driving tanks and shooting people in glorius 720p.

To be honest, I feel that GTA is played out and wouldn't play a board game version (or future console versions) if there was one. I have spent enough time in that realm (since the original) and I know that a BG just wouldn't provide the same experience.
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Manuel Ingeland
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You're very likely right on this, yes. So many more possibilities in vg's (and soo little own imagination)..
I'm just asking myself where the boundaries of bg's really are. We don't combine many game mechanics yet...and the goal is to be reached after a very short time in most of the cases. Most of them taste "1-dimensional".

Take Claustrophobia. Didn't take me a long time to get through with the scenarios. Modular tiles, high replayability...yes...but it's just like reading The Lord of the Rings twice in a year
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John "Omega" Williams
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Various RPGs have the feel of GTA or could be easily adapted.

The board game that comes easiest to mind is Car Wars. Just remove the vehicle weapons and leave them as passenger held guns or somesuch. Theres a few other games that could be adapted.

The old Gangbusters RPG could possibly be adapted to modern gangs.
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Manuel Ingeland
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...I've never played an RPG...do they transport the feeling?
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Freelance Police
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magneheeli wrote:
...I've never played an RPG...do they transport the feeling?


They do it very well.

VP's would be the best way to compare disparate ways to win a game. Expansion sets wouldn't be difficult to add more "roles" players could play. The board could be modular to add variety.

In a way, we're talking an Adventure Boardgame. Each player's roles are similar to quests in a fantasy boardgame. The various areas around town would be the locations a player's current objective sends him to. Each location would have its own encounters, much like Arkham Horror. Encounters could have effects on the player (eg. status, reputation, gain resources, etc.)

Player interaction could be sending police or other NPCs against other players. You could use an amusing Kill Dr. Lucky mechanic where the more cards you pitch to defeat the leader, the fewer you have to defeat another player or help yourself.

The game would have a "free form" variant where you could just have encounters all over the city. This would be similar to Arkham Horror without an Ancient One.
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Manuel Ingeland
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Why don't we give it a try? Just for the fun of it....and without dice, if possible..have another look at my prototype of UNDERDOGS!
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Michael Christie
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I think Arkham Horror has some elements of GTA. You can move around to different locations on the board, beat up monsters that wander around like the pedestrians in GTA, and there's missions and tasks in the Dunwich Horror expansion. If I had more spare time...
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Manuel Ingeland
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Sure, Arkham could be a nice source of inspiration. I think the streets are also an important part here...just like in many Zombie boardgames...
First thoughts here:
Cardboard car markers parked on the sides of the streets. When you decide to take one of the cars, you flip the marker around and see on its back who the owner is/whether the car has an alarm system. Perhaps the owner isn't far away & comes running to beat you up? You have a car meter on your player board indicating the car's demolition status, of course.
On the sideways, there are pedestrians you might have to/want to push over:



Picture from www.spielmaterial.de/english4/

...again with consequences...


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Manuel Ingeland
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Aaight...we don't need the name GTA....we need the FEELING on a board meeple
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