Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » General

Subject: Order of Battle (Elite, Line, Green) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
James
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
What is the purpose of Elite, Line and Green on the OB Display?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Pardoe
United States
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
As part of the Random Scenario Generator, you will be assigned a troop quality (Elite, Line, Green) and then you will have to choose a force within that type.

The troop quality also describes the quality of team received when a squad deploys. This is true of both historical and random scenarios.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
grahamj wrote:
What is the purpose of Elite, Line and Green on the OB Display?


Specifically, when a squad undergoes a Deploy Event or Action, this shows what sort of Team(s) you will use to replace it.

Also, it is a general indicator of your overall troop quality.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Ferejohn
United States
Mountain View
California
flag msg tools
badge
Pitying fools as hard as I can...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also some events have you put new units into play with the indicated quality.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
cferejohn wrote:
Also some events have you put new units into play with the indicated quality.


They do? Like which ones?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark Buetow
United States
McHenry
Illinois
flag msg tools
Combat Commander Archivist
badge
Move! Advance! Fire! Rout! Recover! Artillery Denied! Artillery Request! Command Confusion...say what?!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jwoodall wrote:
I'm sure he means deploy.


That's what I said. But those events don't place *new* units on the board. Just trying to be accurate.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Malacandra wrote:
jwoodall wrote:
I'm sure he means deploy.


That's what I said. But those events don't place *new* units on the board. Just trying to be accurate.

To be pedantically accurate:

deploy rules wrote:
the Squad is removed from its hex, placed back in the countermix, and replaced with two Teams

glossary wrote:
Unit—Any large (⅝˝) counter with an illustration of one or more soldiers. This includes Squads, Teams and Leaders.


So technically the 2 teams are indeed new units (and an old unit (a squad) is removed from the board).

One might argue that the 2 teams "are" the squad in terms of the reality that's being modeled by the game, but in formal game terms, we're talking about 3 different units here: a squad which is removed and 2 new teams that are brought into play.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chadwik
United States
Santa Rosa
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
but in formal game terms, we're talking about 3 different units here: a squad which is removed and 2 new teams that are brought into play.

Not so. In formal game terms, a replacement team(s) for any squad is considered the *same* unit (third sentence of rule E52.2), even though it certainly is a different physical object.

Quantum physics at its finest.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Chad Jensen wrote:
russ wrote:
but in formal game terms, we're talking about 3 different units here: a squad which is removed and 2 new teams that are brought into play.

Not so. In formal game terms, a replacement team(s) for any squad is considered the *same* unit (third sentence of rule E52.2), even though it certainly is a different physical object.

Quantum physics at its finest.

Ha, wow! So 2 = 1. And the universe explodes in a puff of logic!

But seriously, "treated as being the same unit" (E52.2 rules quote) is not the same as "are the same unit".

Clearly the first "large (⅝˝) counter" (definition of "unit") is not the same as the two which replace it as a result of the Deploy event...

But I guess this is devolving into philosophy and semantics.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
russ wrote:
Chad Jensen wrote:
russ wrote:
but in formal game terms, we're talking about 3 different units here: a squad which is removed and 2 new teams that are brought into play.

Not so. In formal game terms, a replacement team(s) for any squad is considered the *same* unit (third sentence of rule E52.2), even though it certainly is a different physical object.

Quantum physics at its finest.

Ha, wow! So 2 = 1. And the universe explodes in a puff of logic!

But seriously, "treated as being the same unit" (E52.2 rules quote) is not the same as "are the same unit".

Clearly the first "large (⅝˝) counter" (definition of "unit") is not the same as the two which replace it as a result of the Deploy event...

But I guess this is devolving into philosophy and semantics.


I agree
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
I just woke up with the amused realization that there would be many amusing quantum physics "spooky action at a distance" paradoxes if the two team units from a Deploy were actually somehow the "same" unit. I submit that the following shows that it can't be true that 2 different teams, even if they resulted from a Deploy, are in any way really the "same" unit.

(Fair warning, it's more rules exegesis! Don't read if you didn't like my previous post.)

For example:

"A unit is always in one of two states: broken or unbroken." (3.2.1) So if one of the teams becomes broken, then the other, no matter how far away, must also immediately become broken, since a unit can't be both broken and unbroken.

And that's just one of many "spooky action at a distance" effects of them being the same unit...

If one of the teams is suppressed, then the other can not become suppressed - hurray! - because "Each unit in play may have a maximum of one of each of the following markers stacked upon it: Suppressed Veteran Weapon" (8.1.1)

(But if one of the teams is a veteran, the other can not become a veteran - boo!)

Similarly, at most one of the two teams that are the same unit can have a weapon. If one of the same-unit teams has a weapon, you can not transfer a weapon to the other same-unit team.

We know that if a unit is eliminated, it goes to the casualty track. A unit can't be both in play in a hex and eliminated at the same time, so clearly the eliminated team's quantum twin would also have to be eliminated. And since the two teams are the same unit, would they occupy one or two spaces on the casualty track?

Logically a unit can not be both in both "activated" and "not activated" states (they are clearly mutually exclusive states), so if you activate one of the same-unit teams, then the other same-unit team, no matter how far away, is also activated - hurray!

Logically an event cannot both happen to and not happen to a unit (either a sniper hits you or it doesn't), so if an event or sniper attack strikes one of the same-unit teams, it must strike the other as well, no matter how far away.


But then the very idea of "a unit" being in more than one hex seems murky - after all, many of the rules talk about "the hex" a unit is in (not "a hex" or "one of the hexes" a unit is in), so it seems apparent that a unit can occupy at most one hex. (Probably there's a rule explicitly saying that a unit can occupy at most one hex, but I didn't find it.) So in fact the two teams which are the same unit must always stay in the same hex if they are really the same unit! Conjoined twins!

So it seems to me that not only is reading "treated as being the same unit" in the context of E52.2 to mean "are the same unit" not in the spirit of “a rule means exactly what it says”, but it also leads to many deep surprising counter-intuitive amusing (at least to me...) paradoxes and unintended side effects.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Julian
Spain
Madrid
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mb
russ wrote:
We know that if a unit is eliminated, it goes to the casualty track. A unit can't be both in play in a hex and eliminated at the same time, so clearly the eliminated team's quantum twin would also have to be eliminated.


Achtung Schrodinger, der cat is ein zombie!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.