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A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: House Tully, House Arryn, and the Neutral Riverlands rss

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Michael Ptak
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Last saturday at my gaming group was something like three games of Game of Thrones. I had purchased the game earlier and was exited to actually get it going. It's an awesome empire builder which stays away from dice (and keeps our Dice magician from winning that way), and isn't bogged down by mechanics when you get down to it.

We also faced the problem of why four player games suck. Aforementioned dice magician ended up as Baratheon, and there wasn't much stopping him from easily winning the game by marching into the south lands and claiming citadels. One proposed solution was to put some of the neutral tokens along the riverlands and use Tyrell instead of Greyjoy (with the iron isles being unconquerable). So I started to fashion neutral tokens for house Tully, to give some competition in the middle while the south could be divvied up between Tyrell and Baratheon.

But while I was designing parts I decided to go ahead and make parts for house Tully and House Arryn.



Spoiler (click to reveal)
I suppose I can understand the decision to utilize house Greyjoy over house Tully, even though house Tully caused problems for the Lannisters in the early and middle parts of the war and were obviously strong enough to put up some resistance (and not just walk in there like the boardgame would suggest). Still when it came to utilizing different players other than the default six I wanted to explore the option of adding these houses, either as potential players or to replace some of the other houses and close off their territory to balance the game (such as locking Tyrell and Martel in games less than 5).


Anyway I'm posting here because 1) I want to show what I'm doing to someone and 2) to get feedback of possibly adding these houses into 2nd ed without causing too much trouble and fuss. I was thinking about making new player shields with new re-deployment options but not changing the board drastically. I was also re-creating an insert to go over the bidding tracks, but supply would remain the same.

Any thoughts?
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Mark Mahaffey
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Don't forget the Targaryens!

Several people have been asking for this we did back when to be remade in the new style and 2nd edition rules, if you care for a challenge:
http://www.west2productions.com/Gamers/AGOT9/
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Michael Ptak
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I have downloaded your group's 9 player set Mark I'll be looking at it for pointers.

I was hoping to do this without making changes to the board, even if it means Lannister and Tully start right next to one another. I would be changing setup conditions to place armies differently though.

About the only thing I would want to change is maybe add ports to spaces, like dropping one in the mountains of the moon The Eyre, even if it contests the Narrow sea and crowding the Eyre as it is :\
 
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I would love to see Mark's group's work published by FFG as an expansion! I think it's a fantastic idea, and would have sufficient instability in it to undermine the static alliances we sometimes find in AGoT2! I love the 4th Westeros deck!!
 
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Michael Ptak
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That's like publishing a whole new game though. You need a new (bigger) board, components for at least three new players, and new cards.

I could see house Arryn becoming active in an expansion, and perhaps an off-board party (Targaryen?) being added in but not much else in the way of factions.
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Great idea Michael, the tokens look really neat!

I can see House Arryn as a new option. It seems a good substitution for House Greyjoy in a four or five-players game. It would take off some pressure of the Lannister and put it in the Baratheons. It also would make House Stark more active in the early stages of the game. In a six-player game, I would replace Martell.

Riverrum as a Neutral House is also a good option, the Greyjoys would need at least make some effort into take it, giving some breath time for the Lannister.

I´m affraid that House Tully would become the "new Lannister" in a four-to-six players game: crammed between Lannisters, Starks and Greyjoys, the player would have a really tough time...

What about the House Cards? You would need to take Blackfish from the Starks and add some Freys to make the set.

As for Arryn (spoiler from ADwD):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The bulk of set would be the lords of the Vale, but I would put Littlefinger as the head of House Arryn, with some really cool ability! You could even add Sansa in her "Alayne" persona.

 
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Hobbit12 wrote:

As for Arryn (spoiler from ADwD):
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The bulk of set would be the lords of the Vale, but I would put Littlefinger as the head of House Arryn, with some really cool ability! You could even add Sansa in her "Alayne" persona.



I think that would be too much of a spoiler to have in the game, although it would be awesome.

Anyway:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Littlefinger (strength 1) ­— You may immediately discard this card and choose a card from your opponent's hand to play in this battle.

It's probably too strong, but add a "pay two power tokens" like Aeron and it might work.
 
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Michael Ptak
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What's blackfish doing with house Stark? He was only with them for all of about two chapters, and only traveling with Catelyn! Yeah he'd have to go.. would find a replacement from among the bannermen that went with Robb and declared him king. Wasn't there a woman warlord who went with them? I can't find a list of the people who went south after mustering and I've already returned the book to the library :\

And if I'm going to be replacing cards, anyone know what kind of cardstock ffg uses for the cards? The stuff I print with is not as sturdy. But then I might have to replace all the cards for Stark as well, to keep the one card from standing out.

Also, littlefinger didn't technically become part of house Arryn until he married into it. Technically for the sake of making things work it might have to be that way, but I'm not afraid of pulling names for non-speaking characters and put them in as well. Dune did it afterall.
 
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(Also, you might want to use the SP tag for the "I suppose I can understand the decision to utilize house Greyjoy over house Tully, even though house Tully..." part earlier). I will delete my post if you use the tags.
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John Enoch
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For a Blackfish replacement, you can use Maege Mormont. She's a commander in Battles of Westeros so you can look there for a reference (as I recall she's just a stout warrior in that game).

For Arryn, some ideas are:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I would keep Lysa, even though Littlefinger killed her. Not sure about an ability, maybe something along the lines of a free victory if you don't play any support orders that round (since she kept the Vale out of the War of the Five Kings). Littlefinger could have a "choose a card from your opponent and they must discard it" ability, since he's a sly dog. Other ideas are the gaoler Mord (pure combat) and Mya Stone, the mule leader and Robert's bastard, maybe allow a non-combat march/move after winning an attacking combat.
 
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Michael Ptak
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Well... I was going to point out that many of the cards you use in battle are commanders with some degree of fighting, but how does that explain Patchface?

It was Maege Mormont I had in mind when I was thinking of a replacement. Blackfish's placement is tricky- because I have to answer if it would be acceptable for him to be fighting house Tully (As an Arryn character played against Tully, presuming Arryn was drawn into the conflict), or would he have deserted and returned to house Tully? He's a significant figure as the captain of the guard in Arryn. Just a pity there are so few characters that really work :\ Might have to add littlefinger just to give them people to use! Even though Littlefinger begins the war in King's Landing as a lacky of King Robert...



 
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Radosław Michalak
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About Blackfish:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Upon meeting his niece Catelyn, who was travelling to the Eyrie with a captured Tyrion Lannister, he became disenchanted with the Vale's neutrality in the growing hostilities throughout the realm and resigned his post and decided to travel with her to Moat Cailin to meet his grand-nephew Robb Stark and his bannermen.

He quickly became an invaluable asset to the Robb's campaign. He was appointed as head of the outriders and would be a crucial member of Northmen's war council. Thanks to his riders efforts, Robb's army was able to sneak up on Lannister forces in the Riverlands and the Westerlands which ensured a successful campaign. When they returned to Riverrun, he was named Castellan and Warden of the South Marches whilst Robb and his forces headed back North to deal with the Ironmen and to also regain the support of House Frey by having Edmure marry Roslin Frey.

After the Red Wedding, he later defended Riverrun against the siege of forces loyal to King Tommen and House Lannister. When Edmure Tully surrendered Riverrun to Jaime Lannister, he helped Brynden slip out and escape. His whereabouts are unknown.

So I think he has a place in house Stark.
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Nacho Facello
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Radziol wrote:
About Blackfish:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Upon meeting his niece Catelyn, who was travelling to the Eyrie with a captured Tyrion Lannister, he became disenchanted with the Vale's neutrality in the growing hostilities throughout the realm and resigned his post and decided to travel with her to Moat Cailin to meet his grand-nephew Robb Stark and his bannermen.

He quickly became an invaluable asset to the Robb's campaign. He was appointed as head of the outriders and would be a crucial member of Northmen's war council. Thanks to his riders efforts, Robb's army was able to sneak up on Lannister forces in the Riverlands and the Westerlands which ensured a successful campaign. When they returned to Riverrun, he was named Castellan and Warden of the South Marches whilst Robb and his forces headed back North to deal with the Ironmen and to also regain the support of House Frey by having Edmure marry Roslin Frey.

After the Red Wedding, he later defended Riverrun against the siege of forces loyal to King Tommen and House Lannister. When Edmure Tully surrendered Riverrun to Jaime Lannister, he helped Brynden slip out and escape. His whereabouts are unknown.

So I think he has a place in house Stark.


Yes, I agree with that. As long as there's no House Tully in the game.
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Radosław Michalak
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nachof wrote:
Yes, I agree with that. As long as there's no House Tully in the game.

There were voices that Blackfish shouldn't be in house Stark even without Tullys.
I think that house Tully is not enough independent to be playable.
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Michael Ptak
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My notion is to create pieces to allow house Arryn and house Tully to become playable factions, so I will need characters for their house cards. It's not easy because the cast of characters from either house is not big.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The presumption is regarding house Arryn that they do not remain neutral in the conflict through one reason or another. In this light, if they were not neutral, would Blackfish have remained with the house of his allegiance or would he have returned to Riverrun to aid his house as he ultimately did in the book? How would he have reacted if House Arryn went to war with house Tully?


The intent is to re-balance the deployment of forces as well. House Arryn is easier to do than house Tully given their location. I want to try to set it up so that house Tully, Lannister, and Greyjoy are in a stalemate and either have to pray to the card gods for a victory or rely on other players for support. It would be a knife in a phonebooth match.

Alternatively, these new houses would be available if others were closed off. A new five player game could exclude house Greyjoy and house Stark, and players would be Tully, Arryn, Lannister, Tyrell,Martell, and Baratheon. Or one house could be replaced with the other.

Additionally I'm crafting neutral power tokens for Riverrun, The Twins, and Winterfell in case players decide to play in the south but lock out the north.

I'm not sure how much of this will work yet, but I intend to test it when I have component construction complete.
 
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Norsehound wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
The presumption is regarding house Arryn that they do not remain neutral in the conflict through one reason or another. In this light, if they were not neutral, would Blackfish have remained with the house of his allegiance or would he have returned to Riverrun to aid his house as he ultimately did in the book? How would he have reacted if House Arryn went to war with house Tully?


Spoiler (click to reveal)
Definitely Tully. Family, Duty, Honor, remember. He had his disagreements with Lord Hoster, but he was still a Tully, and if he left the Arryns because they refused to help Cat, imagine if they had been openly hostile to the Tullys.
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Quote:
My notion is to create pieces to allow house Arryn and house Tully to become playable factions, so I will need characters for their house cards. It's not easy because the cast of characters from either house is not big.


Yes, the fact is that House Arryn is really not a major player during the Game of Thrones. House Tully appears a lot, but they´re too envolved in Robb´s host, they´re are almost Starks during the whole story.

Anyways, I think you would need to go for the bannermen of these houses (pretty much like Houses Florent and Seaworth).

Here goes my suggestions (SPOILERS ADwD):

Spoiler (click to reveal)
HOUSE ARRYN:

4- Yohn Royce: head of House Royce, informal leader of the lords who opposed Littlefinger.
3- Lyn Corbray: one of Lady Lysa´s suitors, a hot-headed knight who killed Prince Lewyn Martell during The Battle of the Trident. Bearer of the valyrian sword of his house.
2- Harrold Hardyng: "The Young Falcon", next in line for the Eyrie
2- Lysa Tully: the over-protecting mistress of House Arryn
1- Donnel Waynwood: the new Knight of The Gate
1- Littlefinger: Heir of The Fingers, former Master of Coins and current Lord Protector of The Vale
0- Alyane Stone: Littlefinger´s daughter, actually Sansa Stark in disguise.

other options: Lady Waynwood, Mya Stone

HOUSE TULLY:

4- Blackfish
3- Walder Frey: The "Late Lord Frey", Head of House Frey
2- Esdmure Tully: youngest son of Hoster Tully
2- Jason Mallister: Heard of House Mallister and enemy of the Greyjoys
1- Black Walder: the furious leader of Lord Frey´s host
1- Marq Piper: friend of Edmure and heir of House Piper
0- Ronald Vance: also friend of Edmure

Other options: Walder Rivers, Tytos Blackwood. If you take out House Stark, you can substitute one of the cards for Catelyn Stark.


Quote:
I want to try to set it up so that house Tully, Lannister, and Greyjoy are in a stalemate and either have to pray to the card gods for a victory or rely on other players for support. It would be a knife in a phonebooth match.


Maybe to prevent the Tullys from being squashed you should give them two strongholds/palaces at the beginning of the game. Probably Riverrun and The Twins.

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Hobbit12 wrote:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
HOUSE ARRYN:
1- Littlefinger: Heir of The Fingers, former Master of Coins and current Lord Protector of The Vale

HOUSE TULLY:
3- Walder Frey: The "Late Lord Frey", Head of House Frey


Spoiler (click to reveal)
For these two I would give them a special ability that could either help or hurt whoever played them, since so far in their books their loyalty has been... flexible. But in general I like your suggestions, I believe there's plenty of names there, especially for Arryn.



 
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Quote:
For these two I would give them a special ability that could either help or hurt whoever played them, since so far in their books their loyalty has been... flexible.


Maybe something like this, maybe better written:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

3- Walder Frey: add two infantaries on the embatlement area, if your supply limits allow. If you win, keep that unit. If you lose, discard them and other one unit of your choice.
 
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Hobbit12 wrote:

Maybe something like this, maybe better written:
Spoiler (click to reveal)

3- Walder Frey: add two infantaries on the embatlement area, if your supply limits allow. If you win, keep that unit. If you lose, discard them and other one unit of your choice.


Perhaps. But you may want to edit your post to preserve the spoiler tag on my suggestion.
 
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Hi Norsehound after seeing your thread it inspired me to have a look and see how playable house Arryn would be on the cureent board but tbh, it did not look very fun so I made and printed out this overlay on paint [sorry for crudness, I am not an artist :-(modest].


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Changes:
*I added the bloody gate as the other space Arryn would start that Baratheon would not be able to move from one of their sphere of influence keeps into the Arryn's home Fortress.
*I added a keep in the Twins to balance that the Eryie was no longer in the Starks field of influence, however I figured it would also serve as a futher point for Greyjoy to fight for freeing up the often tedious Greyjoy Lanister stalling war.
*I added a second barrel in the fingers to represent the smuggling nature of the fingers and the three sisters. However it serves as a more appealing attack for Stark.
*The Vale Sea is nessicary so that it does not stop Baratheon and Stark fighting and meaning that Arryn just have to sit between them being pummeled, now they can play similar to Italy in Diplomacy where they can allie with either side and can be bypassed alot similar to the other side of the map with the sea around Pyke.
*The Eryie was moved to where it is shown on the Westeros Map fpund on Tower of the Hand and made a Fortress for Arryns starting location. With an a crown to make them viable.
*Gulltown was the Eryie and has just had a crown swapped for a port, however.

I think those are all the changes, I figured they would start with a knight in The Bloody Gate and also in the Eryie with a ship in the The Vale Sea. This gives them a slight difference to other sides while also trying to remain thematic, they can not grab everything around them straight away and so have to build up slowly, also they start with knights due to the frequently talked about prowess of the Vale knights.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I figure Gulltown would start neutral due the Little Finger having to win them over


Any feedback would be great, just thought this would be an easy way to alter the board so that Arryn were playable but not destroy the game for other houses, they can all pretty much play a similar game to how they useually do. Baratheon may however be forced more south meaning Lannister have a much more fun time in the middle of the map, however thats still yet to be seen.

Oh I hope you dont mind I kinda butchered your Arryn shield to fit in with the rest on the board lol.
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OK, Tim let's build the updated map for edition 2, that includes Targaryen and Dothraki (as off board mini-maps)?
 
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Any news?
 
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I agree about Tully and Arryn.
About Baratheon in 4 player game - the game in original design is scripted. Lannister have to this, Stark that... or Baratheon wins in few turns.
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What stopped momentum was the fact that I need to create a replacement card for Blackfish, but it needs to be on convincing cardstock so it doesn't become obvious what card is being played. I know there are ways around it but that was what stopped the wheels.

That and determining what the house faction cards are, and the deployment considerations. House Tully is going to be an immediate problem because it will start right next to house lannister. One faction could cripple the other within the first turn.

If I get back to this before Dundracon I might have something to test over the game session. Alternatively when I do have all that figured out I could release it to you guys to test
 
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