Archon286 Brad
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I read before purchasing this the game that it is best played with more than three players. Unfortunately, my love of BSG and lack of social skills has pre-defined the number three for me.

What do you do to make three players a better experience?

I can see why three is a bit of an issue. One loyalty card peek, and you can tell with 100% certainty who the frakkin' toaster is unless Baltar/Sharon are in play.

What I was considering, since the game already seems fairly brutal against the players, is that in a three player game you add one more 'You are NOT a Cylon' card to the loyalty deck. This extra card is never dealt however, and after shuffling it could contain the cylon card. When the first round of loyalty cards goes out, one extra card is removed from the game. This could lead to wild accusations between the crew with no one ever being sure which card got discarded at the beginning of the game.
This idea was cleared up as a sub-par idea by Dexter345





 
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Darren Nakamura
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I think you're mistaking one thing. By the end of the game, every player should have two Loyalty cards (three for Baltar or Boomer).

So if you get a peek pre-Sleeper and you see a You Are Not a Cylon card, that doesn't necessarily tell you that the third player is a Cylon. And it doesn't tell you if the person you peeked at won't become a Cylon halfway through the game.

The only ways to come out of a Loyalty card check with 100% knowledge is if you actually see the You Are a Cylon card, or if you yourself are a Cylon.

Still, I don't mean to downplay that it is a much less tense, much less suspicious game with only three. The solution you describe sounds a lot like the Loyalty deck in the Exodus expansion, and that is a very polarizing idea. Some like the uncertainty it causes, especially in relation to executions, but others hate that it can make for a five player game with only one Cylon. Since executions aren't even possible in the base game, I think you're taking a lot of the bad elements without really getting the benefits of it.

Having a three player game where everybody is a Human would be pretty dull, I'd think.
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Archon286 Brad
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Dexter345 wrote:
I think you're mistaking one thing. By the end of the game, every player should have two Loyalty cards (three for Baltar or Boomer).

...

Having a three player game where everybody is a Human would be pretty dull, I'd think.


Thanks for your input, I was disregarding that first point. While I was playing as a single player, I was ignoring the first phase of the Loyalty deck and just handing out cards during the sleeper phase to simplify things. (since there was no way I could wrap my head around trying to sabotage myself) You're right. There are at least six loyalty cards in play, not three. Oops.

I'm hoping to recruit a 4th local player one day, but that day is not today so I'm trying to think of how to get the most out of three players.
 
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Robert Stewart
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Dexter345 wrote:
The only ways to come out of a Loyalty card check with 100% knowledge is if you actually see the You Are a Cylon card, or if you yourself are a Cylon.


Or using Baltar's OPG to look at all of one player's Loyalty cards post-Sleeper.
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rmsgrey wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
The only ways to come out of a Loyalty card check with 100% knowledge is if you actually see the You Are a Cylon card, or if you yourself are a Cylon.


Or using Baltar's OPG to look at all of one player's Loyalty cards post-Sleeper.


Ah, yes, or that.
 
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Dexter345 wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
The only ways to come out of a Loyalty card check with 100% knowledge is if you actually see the You Are a Cylon card, or if you yourself are a Cylon.


Or using Baltar's OPG to look at all of one player's Loyalty cards post-Sleeper.


Ah, yes, or that.


But do you believe frakking Baltar when he says the other player is a toaster? Baltar has statistically more chance to be the toaster himself.
So even if Baltar can know for 100% sure, he still needs to convince the third player ... which leads to alot of finger pointing anyway.

To my experience (4 games with 3 players), it is still quite fun to play 3 player games of BSG. (in the base game, I prefer 3 player over 4 player)

- Only advise I would give when playing 3 player games is to remove one "arrest order" quorum card. With 2 in the deck, one executive order played on the president can mean both humans end in the brig without a chance to defend themselves. If the unrevealed cylon president and new admiral plays well from then on, it can become a very dull game.

- An other option could be to allow players in the brig to add 2 skill cards to the brig location skill checks instead of just one.

But realy, just one of the above two fixes is enough.
 
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Archon286 Brad
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quit and nuts wrote:

But do you believe frakking Baltar when he says the other player is a toaster? Baltar has statistically more chance to be the toaster himself.
So even if Baltar can know for 100% sure, he still needs to convince the third player ... which leads to alot of finger pointing anyway.

To my experience (4 games with 3 players), it is still quite fun to play 3 player games of BSG. (in the base game, I prefer 3 player over 4 player)

- Only advise I would give when playing 3 player games is to remove one "arrest order" quorum card. With 2 in the deck, one executive order played on the president can mean both humans end in the brig without a chance to defend themselves. If the unrevealed cylon president and new admiral plays well from then on, it can become a very dull game.

- An other option could be to allow players in the brig to add 2 skill cards to the brig location skill checks instead of just one.

But realy, just one of the above two fixes is enough.


It's good to hear from another 3P user. I can see the arrest order problem, though it sounds like an issue once the group gets more skilled. I like the 2 cards from the brig option though. Thanks!
 
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Robert Stewart
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In a three-player non-Exodus game, using Baltar's OPG post-Sleeper guarantees that his player knows who the Cylon is, and if that player then says anything about another player's loyalties, that conclusively clears one player of suspicion (assuming that a non-Cylon Baltar wouldn't lie about another player's loyalty, either he's telling the truth, or he's the Cylon), so you end up with one player who all three players know is not a Cylon, and the other two both know which of them is the Cylon.

Of course, in the four player game, if the sympathiser goes to the Brig (and is neither Baltar nor Boomer) then looking at their remaining loyalty card also gives you complete information about their loyalty...
 
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Darren Nakamura
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rmsgrey wrote:
In a three-player non-Exodus game, using Baltar's OPG post-Sleeper guarantees that his player knows who the Cylon is, and if that player then says anything about another player's loyalties, that conclusively clears one player of suspicion (assuming that a non-Cylon Baltar wouldn't lie about another player's loyalty, either he's telling the truth, or he's the Cylon), so you end up with one player who all three players know is not a Cylon, and the other two both know which of them is the Cylon.


That's one way to frame it, but the one player who all three know is not a Cylon is the one player who still doesn't know who to trust.
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I've played several 3p games before. In the case you turn out to be human, but don't know which of the other 2p are the cylons, I just do my own thing. If one player asks me to XO him so he can use a AA to Brig the cylon (sometimes with full info due to him being Baltar and using his OPG), I'd say just do it on your own turn. Worst case is he uses AA and reveals, sending both of us to the Brig. By pitting one unknown cylon vs. an unknown human, they keep each other in check while I use my turns to further humanity's goals.
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I think the most important thing to do for a 3p game is to disallow Baltar. His OPG is just too game changing. I don't find Gaius much fun in single cylon games. Second thought is definitely remove an arrest order. That quorum deck is very easy to get through in the base game. Have fun.
 
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Archon286 Brad
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j0frenzy wrote:
I think the most important thing to do for a 3p game is to disallow Baltar. His OPG is just too game changing. I don't find Gaius much fun in single cylon games. Second thought is definitely remove an arrest order. That quorum deck is very easy to get through in the base game. Have fun.


That's two people recommending removing the second Arrest order, and I see where you're headed with Baltar. Thanks!
 
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I'll chime in on the opposite side. There's nothing more satisfying as a Cylon in a three-player game to be executive ordered and plot down two arrest orders.

The situation isn't a given by any means, so it doesn't crop up as often as you might think. The Cylon has to be the President, has to have drawn both arrest orders, etc.

What I find unbalanced about three with the base game is the reliance on pilots. If your pilot turns out to be a cylon, you're dead unless they don't know what they're doing. With the Pegasus expansion, this is mitigated since the Pegasus does a good job at clearing away Cylon ships (still not easy with just two human players, but possible).

I find the three player Cylon leader variant more fun, but three player base+Pegasus works well for us.
 
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jshaffstall wrote:
What I find unbalanced about three with the base game is the reliance on pilots. If your pilot turns out to be a cylon, you're dead unless they don't know what they're doing. With the Pegasus expansion, this is mitigated since the Pegasus does a good job at clearing away Cylon ships (still not easy with just two human players, but possible).


I can't say I've ever noticed pilots being essential - okay, once in a blue moon, you'll XO one who has a double Max Firepower and enough targets to use it. The rest of the time, unless you're training new pilots, an XO to someone in Command will get you four Viper actions spread across multiple sectors. Not drawing Evasive Maneuvers increases the Viper attrition rate slightly, but that's balanced by drawing more useful cards for skill checks. Between Command and Communications, it's rare that you can't keep ahead of the Cylons until you can jump (and if you're being overwhelmed by Cylon ships, then having a pilot might not save you anyway...)
 
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rmsgrey wrote:
jshaffstall wrote:
What I find unbalanced about three with the base game is the reliance on pilots. If your pilot turns out to be a cylon, you're dead unless they don't know what they're doing. With the Pegasus expansion, this is mitigated since the Pegasus does a good job at clearing away Cylon ships (still not easy with just two human players, but possible).


I can't say I've ever noticed pilots being essential - okay, once in a blue moon, you'll XO one who has a double Max Firepower and enough targets to use it. The rest of the time, unless you're training new pilots, an XO to someone in Command will get you four Viper actions spread across multiple sectors. Not drawing Evasive Maneuvers increases the Viper attrition rate slightly, but that's balanced by drawing more useful cards for skill checks. Between Command and Communications, it's rare that you can't keep ahead of the Cylons until you can jump (and if you're being overwhelmed by Cylon ships, then having a pilot might not save you anyway...)


The pilots are valuable not only because they can hop in Vipers and use Maximum Firepower, but also because they get more Actions than most. Starbuck can use Maximum Firepower and then XO or scout. Apollo can get actions out of turn. If he's on Command and he's XO'd, he can get three unmanned Viper activations and then hop into a launched Viper to CAG for six more.

Yes, the situation in space is manageable without Pilots, but I definitely think it's easier with them around.
 
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Because finding out who is the Cylon (in a 3 player game) is sometimes a bit too easy we made this variant:

Every player plays 2 characters. The Loyalty deck remains the same. So at the start of the game you'll get 1 loyalty card for 2 characters. This made finding out who the Cylon is a lot harder!!

When revealing, the effect of the loyalty card is used only once. And one other important rule: you cannot play an executive order on your own character.
 
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Archon286 Brad
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Steye wrote:
Because finding out who is the Cylon (in a 3 player game) is sometimes a bit too easy we made this variant:

Every player plays 2 characters. The Loyalty deck remains the same. So at the start of the game you'll get 1 loyalty card for 2 characters. This made finding out who the Cylon is a lot harder!!

When revealing, the effect of the loyalty card is used only once. And one other important rule: you cannot play an executive order on your own character.


You know, I had considered a three player 6 character variant. I wasn't sure how to handle the cylon problem though. Do both characters become cylons then? If so, do they both get super crisis cards? Do they take turns back-to back with each other? If you could clarify how you play that variant I'd appreciate it!
 
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In a three player game A, Baltar, C in which Baltar looks at A's cards, you can work through the cases. I'm assuming sensible play. But they boil down to:

If Baltar is loyal, he accurately says what he saw. Now Baltar and the Cylon know what's what, but the other loyal player doesn't know who his ally is.

If Baltar is a Cylon he can say A is a Cylon or loyal. If he says A is a Cylon then now Baltar and A know what's what, but C doesn't know who his ally is. If he says A is loyal then C knows Baltar is a Cylon and so C knows what's what but A doesn't know who his ally is.

Now in the first case (loyal Baltar) the only person to gain information is Baltar. In the second case the only person to gain information is the loya player Baltar has accused of being a Cylon (directly or indirectly).

So is it worth using Baltar's ability? A loyal Baltar has a real cost (one action) versus gain tradeoff. A Cylon Baltar only shoots himself in the foot (and spends an action doing it) by using his ability. Time to find something really pressing that needs doing ("this is important to all of us, but me using my ability only helps me, so this is the team thing to do"). And hope neither A nor C work out why they should want him to do it.

I dare say one could extend this to partial information cases.

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Archon286 wrote:
Steye wrote:
Because finding out who is the Cylon (in a 3 player game) is sometimes a bit too easy we made this variant:

Every player plays 2 characters. The Loyalty deck remains the same. So at the start of the game you'll get 1 loyalty card for 2 characters. This made finding out who the Cylon is a lot harder!!

When revealing, the effect of the loyalty card is used only once. And one other important rule: you cannot play an executive order on your own character.


You know, I had considered a three player 6 character variant. I wasn't sure how to handle the cylon problem though. Do both characters become cylons then? If so, do they both get super crisis cards? Do they take turns back-to back with each other? If you could clarify how you play that variant I'd appreciate it!


- There are 3 players (I'll call them A, B and C), each has 2 characters (1 and 2). The turn order is: A1, B1, C1, A2, B2, C2.

- Rules for choosing characters: As normal, but with one additional rule: if player A selected a Military Leader as his first character, he cannot select a Military Leader as his second character. Etcetera. This balances the game and makes Cylons even harder to detect.

- The Loyalty deck is the same as a normal 3 player loyalty deck. If player A gets the "You're a Cylon" card, both his characters become Cylons.

- If you'd like to have a Cylon from the start of the game (a game with 6 all human characters turns out to be a bit boring..) you just make this 3 card loyalty deck: 2x You're Human, 1x You're Cylon. The Sleeperphase is ignored except for Boomer, she still has to go to the brig.

- If one of them reveals (A1 for example), the other (A2) is automatically revealed (and placed on the Resurrection Ship. The ability of the Cylon Loyalty card is used only once, not twice!!

- The character who revealed first (A1) gets a Super Crisis. The second character (A2) does not unless he stays on the Resurrection Ship location for one whole turn.

- Just to be complete: character A1 cannot give character A2 an Executive Order. The skill cards of each character should be kept separate. That's it I think! Enjoy!
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